Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was just thinking about the couple reasons the Imperium was able to flourish during the Great Crusade. A couple ideas I had were Astronomican and the creation of the Legions.

Now since the Imperium has basically said no to the Legions and has cut their power into bits (chapters) I was wondering what you heretics thought about the next step the Imperium could take in producing a more secure and powerful Imperium. If at all possible what are your heretical ideas?

Just to share a few of my ideas are the unification of the Chapters into Legions again and perhaps more genitically enhanced soldiers. Of course, nothing compared to the astartes, but I imagine that they could manipulate genes and such to produce some hard core soldiers, maybe like the movie Universal Soldier. I think that the true power of the Imperium would lie in taking its military to the next step in which they would have to stop using their guardsmen as cannon fodder. The primary reason why I say they will eventually have to stop this, is because the Imperium cannot sacrifice man to man with all the enemies it has. Anyway thats my take. Better equipment as well, though I can imagine how hard that would be to basically re-equip (with armor and better weaponry) the entire Imperium. But I think it is necessary.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,046 Posts
My first step would be to destroy it's current system and rebuild it from the ground up, stream line it. My next step would be to consolidate power, the imperium is trying to defend to much space, some limbs need to be cut in order to ensure the survival of the body. Next would be to eliminate the practice of specializing worlds to do a single task, each woulda should be self sufficient, the current structure leaves them weak; if you eliminate a single world, in the current system, you can starve an entire sector. Each world will be able to raise its own military, outfit it, and feed it.

Military:
Each regiment will be assigned training advisors by a nearby chapter which will help to modernize tactics and create a better trained and efficient group of men. Also, the training of of officers will be left to SM officer trainers from those nearby chapters to further help modernize tactics. After the first class of new officers graduates, they will each go out and train another group of regiments and so on and so forth. This process will be carried out over all branches of the imperial military.

Coms:
This is the most important area, I am not sure how to fix it but it must be streamlined.
I would suggest a network of relay stations to speed things up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,544 Posts
They could have a better standpoint if they built more small empires like Ultramar, instead of having sattered planets all over the place. Would make their empire much more easier to manage and control/defend.

I wouldn't say form legions again as to what happened in the first place, and if that happened again it would jsut be a massive step back.

They should also stop being so retarded and rebuking all alien technology. The Tau, Eldar and I'm sure other races have superior tech, if they studied them, used them or even made them more powerful they would have a more deadly array of weaponry. Excluding things like chaos weapons of coure.

If they stopped being so technophobic and rebuilt what they lost, they would advance more. Even build something that would act like the atronomican if they could to help guide shis through the warp. If they were able to study Eldar webway gates and uncover their serets that would aid them massively.

Yeah more genetically enhanced warrior would be good. If not to Astartes standard, then at least increase their strength, eye sight, etc.

Some ideas there.
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
I was just thinking about the couple reasons the Imperium was able to flourish during the Great Crusade. A couple ideas I had were Astronomican and the creation of the Legions.

Now since the Imperium has basically said no to the Legions and has cut their power into bits (chapters) I was wondering what you heretics thought about the next step the Imperium could take in producing a more secure and powerful Imperium. If at all possible what are your heretical ideas?

Just to share a few of my ideas are the unification of the Chapters into Legions again
The reunification of the Chapters would not necessarily be the right move. Roboute Guilliman splintered the Legions for a reason, (among other reasons) to prevent such a large scale rebellion easily occuring again by reducing the amount of power and influence the head of Astartes forces maintained. If the Legions had remained unified after the passing of the Primarchs, can you imagine what would have happened if the head of the Legion fell to Chaos? Its a devastating tragedy when a single Astartes chapter falls from the Imperial fold, but an entire Legion sized force of Astartes falling to Chaos would have been an unimaginable blow that could have potentially laid waste to entire swathes of Imperial territory.

The Imperium wouldn't suddenly become more powerful by reinstating the Legions, in fact it wouldn't really make any positive difference at all. Another reason why Guilliman split the Legions was to change the purpose of Astartes into rapid reaction forces essentially, forces which could back-up the armies of the Imperial Guard and strike at areas which the Guard couldn't. The Chapters are spread out all over the galaxy, as they need to be to protect the vast realms of the Imperium. Even if the Legions were reinstated, they would still have to be split up and spread out all over the galaxy in order to safeguard the Emperor's worlds. It would make no positive difference to the Imperium whatsoever.

And aside from that, its also very unpractical. The Chapters are now very individual and are often very distinctive and ideologically seperate from their parent Chapters, trying to thrust them back into a firm union would draw high amounts of contempt.

And also, who is going to order to reunification of the Legions? The Administratum? The High Lords? The Inquisition? The Astartes would tell them all to shove it.

and perhaps more genitically enhanced soldiers. Of course, nothing compared to the astartes, but I imagine that they could manipulate genes and such to produce some hard core soldiers, maybe like the movie Universal Soldier.
The Imperium already genetically enhance many of their soldiers.

I think that the true power of the Imperium would lie in taking its military to the next step in which they would have to stop using their guardsmen as cannon fodder. The primary reason why I say they will eventually have to stop this, is because the Imperium cannot sacrifice man to man with all the enemies it has. Anyway thats my take. Better equipment as well, though I can imagine how hard that would be to basically re-equip (with armor and better weaponry) the entire Imperium. But I think it is necessary.
The Imperium is a military regime. Almost the entirety of its resources and manpower are geared towards the defence of their realms. They are already doing everything they can, yet still failing.
 

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Would have to disagree with you there CotE. Though Guilliman may have split the legions for a reason I believe it to be a quite irashional and unnecessary. Sure you can say that it was because of the legions that created the downfall of the Imperium from the betrayel of half of them. However, it was also because of the Legions that they were triumphing beyond what they could ever imagine. For the legions that have remained loyal, it makes no sense to me to have them cut themselves into pieces. These legions (now chapters) paid the ultimate price in remaining loyal. Going above and beyond, I highly doubt that any of the legions would betray the Imperium after the Heresy. If there was a time to chose sides, it would have been back then. They had been tested and measured during the heresy and have been found loyal. This also going to the primarchs who are praised as heros for their deaths and sacrifices during the heresy. At this point, there is no point in turning back. Will there be instances were fragments of astartes that will fall from the grace of the Imperium? Of course, but that even happens with chapters. Chapters are also more vulnerable to chaos as their are a select few that need to get corrupted for the entirety of the chapter to fall.

The Imperium already genetically enhance many of their soldiers.
That may be so, but it is not enough. What I'm talking about is enhancing soldiers in mass amounts to where the normal guardsmen are being replaced by a totally different soldier.

The Imperium is a military regime. Almost the entirety of its resources and manpower are geared towards the defence of their realms. They are already doing everything they can, yet still failing.
I beg to differ, especially with all the technology out there along with the greatest of the Imperium has to offer. They have plenty of the other and refuse to step it up to the next level which is probably fear of change.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,046 Posts
Like the Spartan III program?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
408 Posts
The threats to the Imperium are too varied and constant.

The best they can do is put out fires and set enemies against each other (like they are doing). This way the Imperium erodes and dies slowly unlike the quick death of the majority of the Eldar.

Even if the Imperium found a way to ally with the Eldar and Tau without losing its identity I still think they would be goners.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,046 Posts
gen.ahab... stop reading my mind!
The problem is that a trooper on par with a Spartan III would still be hard to produce on the level needed and it would cost a huge amount. Maybe something just below that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
They need to stop the stagnation of technology. Start producing newer techs and weapons. Much of what they use is old, Dark Age or redone. They need to get back into producing technology equivalent of the Dark Age and improving upon it. Imagine the Dark Age hover bikes replacing all the standard bikes.

Much could be improved, but without them being backed into a corner with no option left I don't see anything happening. They'll keep going how they are and slowly die, but once the Necrons rise up and start the 2nd phase they may change or just be harvested.
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
Would have to disagree with you there CotE. Though Guilliman may have split the legions for a reason I believe it to be a quite irashional and unnecessary.
Really? Even after what you said, that Astartes Legions had just laid waste to and crippled the Imperium at the moment of it's ultimate triumph. Would it have been wise to allow nine of these grand military forces free reign and autonomy, after what their brothers had just done?

For the legions that have remained loyal, it makes no sense to me to have them cut themselves into pieces. These legions (now chapters) paid the ultimate price in remaining loyal. Going above and beyond, I highly doubt that any of the legions would betray the Imperium after the Heresy.
Its perfectly plausable that some of the Legions that remained loyal during the Heresy could have fallen in the following ten thousand years, especially after the passing of the Primarchs. Not necessarily for ideological reasons, but via corruption. For evidence just look how many chapters have fallen since the Heresy...

If there was a time to chose sides, it would have been back then. They had been tested and measured during the heresy and have been found loyal.
That doesn't mean they were suddenly immune to corruption. Ten thousand years is a long time, and without their Primarchs there was plenty of opportunity for each of the Legions to fall. And even if a single one did, it may well have been enough to cripple the Imperium.

Chapters are also more vulnerable to chaos as their are a select few that need to get corrupted for the entirety of the chapter to fall.
It wouldn't have been so different if the Astartes had remained as Legions. It would only take a select few individuals for either the entire (or most of the) Legion to fall or at least tear itself apart in a civil war.

I beg to differ, especially with all the technology out there along with the greatest of the Imperium has to offer. They have plenty of the other and refuse to step it up to the next level which is probably fear of change.
In that regard you are of course correct. But the Imperium will never change, neither will the Ad Mech. So taken in context, within the realms of reality, they are doing everything they can.
 

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Really? Even after what you said, that Astartes Legions had just laid waste to and crippled the Imperium at the moment of it's ultimate triumph. Would it have been wise to allow nine of these grand military forces free reign and autonomy, after what their brothers had just done?
I don't think its possible to think any other force besides the very force that created the empire could hold it together. "United we stand divided we fall." And we see after the ten of thousand year later that many chapters have indeed fallen to chaos and/or and have been completely whipped out of existance. Your property manager burns your apartment down. You can't go, "step aside sir, I will be taking over." I never owned that property, I have no idea how to take such a responsibility in my current situation. Even though it is the fault of my property manager that he fucked up my life, I can't just take his job and land and pretend I can take care of it like he can. The same goes with the legions. They have made up the Imperium. As a whole they messed up, but their is still an Imperium non the less.


Its perfectly plausable that some of the Legions that remained loyal during the Heresy could have fallen in the following ten thousand years, especially after the passing of the Primarchs. Not necessarily for ideological reasons, but via corruption. For evidence just look how many chapters have fallen since the Heresy...
Many reasons why many chapters have fallen is because they have been abanddoned by the Imperium or at least they have felt they had been abanddoned. In many ways it is easier for these chapters to fall to chaos as they don't have a backbone to fall to except for their dwindling battle brothers. Soon that fate breaks. As we have seen with a lot of the Legions in the Heresy, it is really hard for a whole legion to fall to chaos. 4 of those legions had a great portion of their legion turn against them for falling and betraying the Imperium. In order for an entire legion to fall to chaos they pretty much have to be pushed over the edge. So like many things... sure... it could be plausable but probably one of the most unprobable things to occur.


That doesn't mean they were suddenly immune to corruption. Ten thousand years is a long time, and without their Primarchs there was plenty of opportunity for each of the Legions to fall. And even if a single one did, it may well have been enough to cripple the Imperium.
Again, possible but highly unlikely. The loyal legions have sacrificed too much to turn back. And thats pretty much an understatement if indeed any of the remaining loyal primarchs wanted to become traitor. They would have to consider that and also consider the fact they have built a legacy for themselves in the Imperium and for their legions. If indeed their was something more that the corruption of chaos could offer them that didn't during the heresy that would be a sight to see.

It wouldn't have been so different if the Astartes had remained as Legions. It would only take a select few individuals for either the entire (or most of the) Legion to fall or at least tear itself apart in a civil war.
As long as their core had been stationed close to the Imperium and in fate of the Imperial Doctrine, they would be fine. It goes back to my other comment that their is a definite reason to why chapters do fall to chaos. And that is usually due to their inability to fall down onto something bigger than their force of 1000 space marines. When they have strayed to far from the Imperium and have lost focus of their purpose that yes they will fall to chaos. It also doesn't help to have the Inquisition picking on the chapters. As we have also seen many chapters that have been thrown out and had little choice but the gain help from the ruinous power.

In that regard you are of course correct. But the Imperium will never change, neither will the Ad Mech. So taken in context, within the realms of reality, they are doing everything they can.
... never say never... :pa unofficial James Bond film but also a little saying. We have more and more chapters falling out of sway from Guilliman's Codex and we have Inquisitors using daemons and possessed to fight chaos. Just wait I say, just not too long.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Guard need to be modernized which means no more frontal charges, trench warfare, "close combat" etc. Basically they need to stop fighting like it's world war 1.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
104 Posts
Guard need to be modernized which means no more frontal charges, trench warfare, "close combat" etc. Basically they need to stop fighting like it's world war 1.
Rule of Cool. The 40Kverse literally runs off this. Hell, some guard regiments look like they're still fighting the Boer/Napoleonic War while others are fighting like it’s the WW2 Eastern Front. Or take those armoured regiments and their Blitzkrieg. And there are high-tech guard regiments like the Elysian Drop-Troopers as well. It really does come a lot down whatever inspired the regiment. Plus pretty much ever regiment has the WW2-era Russian army (and Zapp Branigan)’s favoured tactics sending wave after of wave of poorly equipped cannon fodder with machine guns/commissars positioned behind them to prevent them from running away...

On the Legions to Chapters front, I agree with CotE (as I usually do). The Legions were not split just o prevent another Heresy, though this was a major issue. The Heresy proved that the legions were loyal to themselves and their primarchs above the Imperium. You don’t need corruption for this to be a huge issue. Splitting them up split their loyalties, made them less monolithic, reducing the overall threat. In a move of near-perfect irony, the Codex Astartes nearly lead to a new civil war when this change was proposed, practically proving the need for it...

I think the final proof of this is the Badab War – one man’s pride and ego led to a (admittedly localised) civil war between several Chapters that lasted a rather long time. Although Huron and his Claws would fall to chaos after the war, they weren’t acting due to corruption, just out of ego.

The other main reason the Legions were split into smaller, more autonomous Chapters is much simpler but perhaps more important. The Great Crusade was over. The Imperium had been ravaged by the Heresy, and I doubt all those traitorous worlds who’d thrown their lot in with Horus just quietly surrendered when he died. The Imperium had to rebuild itself and could not afford to continue to expand. More mobile Chapters that answer only to themselves rather than a few Legion-bigwigs are better as a rapid-response than massive Legions, which were built to conquer world after world which was no longer a key concern. The Guard and Navy were split for similar reasons. Guilliman recognised the Imperium had changed and they had to change with it.

The Imperium still wages smaller crusades, of course – conquering the Calyx Expanse, the Sabbat Worlds – but it’s limited. Macharius is the perfect example – he led the most profitable crusade since the first but ultimately he had to stop. The Imperium, while still expansionist, is more concerned with keeping what it has (which is a struggle, we can all agree).

Why has the Imperium faltered, then, if not because of the splitting of the Legions? Simple. Nobody could, or wanted to, fill the Emperor’s shoes. The High Lords are not a good replacement.

The best options (men like Malcador, Dorn, Sanguinius) were mostly dead or grief-stricken by the end of the Heresy and the Emperor wasn’t actually dead. Frankly, if anyone had tried to claim the throne Dorn would probably have directly opposed them and I doubt he'd be the only one. So we get the High Lords, a council of men elected/chosen by their respective bodies – in short, career politicians serving their own special interest groups. Let's look at the Fabricator General. The AdMech have been identified, correctly IMO, as main thing holding the Imperium back. Sadly, they hold a permanent seat. The Fabricator General of Mars is not a position that will fall to a crazy progressionist who would try to modernise the AdMech, but to a loyal traditionist who will act only to protect their sovereignty and interests at the expense of everyone else.

Ten thousand years of such governance (though with tech-prist lifespans the torch probably hasn’t been passed too often) has led to the technological stagnation of the Imperium we all know and love, and, in my opinion, has signed its inevitable (but so very, very slow) death warrant.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
The Imperium of Man just needs to find a functioning STC machine. With the technology of the Dark Age the Imperium's problems are more or less solved. The High Lords of Terra should order the Blood Ravens to scour the galaxy for an STC Machine and forget fighting in the Dawn of War series.

That or a reconciliation program with the Alpha Legion since they may still be loyal to humanity and the Emperor (Legion led me to conclude this).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,475 Posts
The Imperium can finally roll over and die. Human Race can begin again the long road of Old Night part 2. Until they reach the Dark Age of Tech again theres really no hope.
 

·
I am Alpharius.
Joined
·
8,375 Posts
Find a single uncorrupted complete STC, and I will happily walk into the Eye of Terror and say "We wins."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
I think GW should shake things up a bit, and if the reintroduction of a Primarch is out of the question, then perhaps they should have the Imperium obtain a STC to help them take things up a notch against their many enemies.

And I'm not talking about a minor variant of a Land Raider or something but something monumentally different.

For example, easily mass produced forms of power armor for a majority of Imperial Guard troops?

Forcefields for IG troops similar to the ones we see in Abnett's short story Little Horus?

It always got to me when I would see the Imperium make contact with a lost colony of humanity with some nifty gadgets and never make use of them.

edit- just read posts above me. ninja'd
 

·
Apathetic Megalomaniac
Joined
·
456 Posts
Hmm, if I had a chance to reshape the Imperium, doing whatever I thought would change the Imperium for the better, I would probably do mostly what gen.ahab said, with a few changes.

1. Government: Streamline the Administratum, cut the fat, everything that has no use any longer, or will not(after I change it). Reduce it's responsibilities to being intermediaries in inter-planetary disputes, and managing requests for aid from planets. Like gen.ahab said, get rid of specialist planets and make each world responsible for their own militaries and defense. They will also be responsible for sending one representative to Terra, where they will join the newly formed Senate(yes, I really like Democratic Republics), who will make all the galaxy-changing decisions.

2. Technology: Disestablish the Adeptus Mechanicus and replace it with a council within the Administratum. All planets will be responsible for researching technology, and anything new or recreated will be given to this Technology Council. Rigorous testing will decide whether it is suitable for mass distribution, thus more or less standardizing Imperial technology.

3. Military: I like what gen.ahab said about Space Marines training IG, but I want to take it further. All Space Marine Chapters will be dissolved and divided up among frontline worlds(not all worlds will be getting Space Marines, if that was true, every planet would get 1 space marine :p). The average space marine will be formed into squads to be used as special forces for the world's military, but the Officers will become the new heads of that world's military each captain will control one regiment, and each Chapter Master will become the head of that world's entire military. Thus, all IG regiments would be able to benefit from the knowledge and experience of century's old space marine commanders and that when a world is attacked CSM, they would have their own group of SM to help defend.

And that's basically it. In short: Independent Planets, independent technological research with a tech council to decide if it can be mass produced, and a fusion of IG and SM, where the SM only number in the 10s on each world, but they lead the military on that world as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,778 Posts
Rule of Cool. The 40Kverse literally runs off this. Hell, some guard regiments look like they're still fighting the Boer/Napoleonic War while others are fighting like it’s the WW2 Eastern Front. Or take those armoured regiments and their Blitzkrieg. And there are high-tech guard regiments like the Elysian Drop-Troopers as well. It really does come a lot down whatever inspired the regiment. Plus pretty much ever regiment has the WW2-era Russian army (and Zapp Branigan)’s favoured tactics sending wave after of wave of poorly equipped cannon fodder with machine guns/commissars positioned behind them to prevent them from running away...

On the Legions to Chapters front, I agree with CotE (as I usually do). The Legions were not split just o prevent another Heresy, though this was a major issue. The Heresy proved that the legions were loyal to themselves and their primarchs above the Imperium. You don’t need corruption for this to be a huge issue. Splitting them up split their loyalties, made them less monolithic, reducing the overall threat. In a move of near-perfect irony, the Codex Astartes nearly lead to a new civil war when this change was proposed, practically proving the need for it...

I think the final proof of this is the Badab War – one man’s pride and ego led to a (admittedly localised) civil war between several Chapters that lasted a rather long time. Although Huron and his Claws would fall to chaos after the war, they weren’t acting due to corruption, just out of ego.

The other main reason the Legions were split into smaller, more autonomous Chapters is much simpler but perhaps more important. The Great Crusade was over. The Imperium had been ravaged by the Heresy, and I doubt all those traitorous worlds who’d thrown their lot in with Horus just quietly surrendered when he died. The Imperium had to rebuild itself and could not afford to continue to expand. More mobile Chapters that answer only to themselves rather than a few Legion-bigwigs are better as a rapid-response than massive Legions, which were built to conquer world after world which was no longer a key concern. The Guard and Navy were split for similar reasons. Guilliman recognised the Imperium had changed and they had to change with it.

The Imperium still wages smaller crusades, of course – conquering the Calyx Expanse, the Sabbat Worlds – but it’s limited. Macharius is the perfect example – he led the most profitable crusade since the first but ultimately he had to stop. The Imperium, while still expansionist, is more concerned with keeping what it has (which is a struggle, we can all agree).

Why has the Imperium faltered, then, if not because of the splitting of the Legions? Simple. Nobody could, or wanted to, fill the Emperor’s shoes. The High Lords are not a good replacement.

The best options (men like Malcador, Dorn, Sanguinius) were mostly dead or grief-stricken by the end of the Heresy and the Emperor wasn’t actually dead. Frankly, if anyone had tried to claim the throne Dorn would probably have directly opposed them and I doubt he'd be the only one. So we get the High Lords, a council of men elected/chosen by their respective bodies – in short, career politicians serving their own special interest groups. Let's look at the Fabricator General. The AdMech have been identified, correctly IMO, as main thing holding the Imperium back. Sadly, they hold a permanent seat. The Fabricator General of Mars is not a position that will fall to a crazy progressionist who would try to modernise the AdMech, but to a loyal traditionist who will act only to protect their sovereignty and interests at the expense of everyone else.

Ten thousand years of such governance (though with tech-prist lifespans the torch probably hasn’t been passed too often) has led to the technological stagnation of the Imperium we all know and love, and, in my opinion, has signed its inevitable (but so very, very slow) death warrant.

:goodpost:

I pretty much agree with Eremite here. :).
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top