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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So I'm completely new to Chaos, used to play Eldar and Tau and figured I'd try out on e of the evil forces for a little variety. I really like the looks of the Thousand sons and with all the annoying space marines floating about what's not to love about an Ap 3 bolter, right?

Now, when I create an army I always make up a bit of history about it's origin and that sort of things. although this army's story is still under construction but here's the basics:

A Tzeentch Sorcerer that sought the outmost powerful arcane knowledge once performed a self-designed ritual, letting the very image of him transfer into the warp realm. This unapproved experimental form of sorcery proved to be extremely dangerous, for the source of divine power comes with a great cost. This he came of aware of himself as he realized that to project an image into the warp, it requires a piece of its soul to travel there. And it’s not a very wise thing to do, sending you unprotected soul into the twisted world of the demonically wretched dimensions within the warp.

Spirits floating about his head while standing in thin air set ablaze with pink flames, he found himself staring right into the eyes of a terrifying monster. What his already damaged soul (come on, he's a chaos sorcerer, of course is soul was cursed at the start of his arcane training and has been tormented ever since!) had unfortunately stumbled upon was a daemon prince. captured and not able to defend himself the sorcerer agreed to set the daemon free in exchange of his own survival. For the daemon prince required another being's living soul to let him out of the warp and enter another world and he though of the sorcerer's as one where he could ravage upon everything in his path. living the life a true prince deserves!
Also as part of the agreement was to sacrifice the body of some of his men for other smaller demons to in habit, because the daemon's trust in the loyalty of mankind was not the strongest. Hence he wanted a few of his own kind nearby as them he could somewhat reliably trust to fulfill their tasks as he bossed them around.

And so the sorcerer was brought back to his own world again after swearing his loyalty to the daemon and the Lord of Tzeentch as well as promising the daemon hosts carrying immense fire power and a dragon for his daemonic minions to occupy.


in the present tense that's about how far I've gotten, and with this fluff I figured I could still fit in a few obliterators in a tzeentch army as otherwise they usually don't seam to approve of mutated company, correct me if I'm wrong :grin:

As far as the list is concerned, here's my idea, a sorcerer, a powerful daemon prince, a "possessed dragon", obliterators and a few squads of thousand sons.


HQ:
Chaos Sorcerer with, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar, Mark of Tzeentch, Mastery level 2.
140 p
3++ armour save sounds sweet and ML 2 will do

Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeencth, Wings, Power armour, Burning brand of Skalathrax.
250 p
Very pricey I know, but flying monstrous creature is great and a 3+ could come in handy too. the artifact will be really powerful

Troops:
8 Thousand Sons with, Aspiring Champion with Melta bombs.
224 p

7 Thousand Sons with, Aspiring Champion with Melta bombs.
201 p

7 Thousand Sons with, Aspiring Champion with Melta bombs.
201 p
Basic troops able to deal with infantry/MEQ

Fast Attack:
Heldrake with Baleflamer.
170 p
Have a great conversion idea for this one as I'm not a huge fan of the model. simply adding a metallic tale and posing it like this:
http://www.google.se/imgres?um=1&hl...9,r:77,s:0,i:325&tx=29&ty=56&biw=1467&bih=731

Heavy Support:
2 Obliterators with Mark of Tzeentch.
156 p

2 Obliterators with Mark of Tzeentch.
156 p
Great models that fits the theme of this army


Total: 1498 points

would've loved to include some warp talons as I think they're about the coolest looking models GW has ever made, but all I've heard is that they aren't very good and I believe I already have plenty of anti marine stuff. namely inferno bolts, daemon prince and a baleflamer.

my flyer and prince can take on infantry/MEQ/flyers with their awesome torrent Ap 3 flamers/vector strikes.

T-sons deal with infantry of any sort but TEQ.

Oblits are for anything really, although mainly to counter TEQ and armoured vehicles as my list is sort of lacking Ap2 and AT apart from some psychic power.


That's all guys, thanks for reading and please do comment if you have any questions or suggestions regarding the army list of the fluff for that matter :)

Any C&C is much appreciated, thanks!
 

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It's imho a fairly simple, solid list... kind of a 1500 pt version of what I've been working with. I tend to fluff my Thousand Sons towards the Ahriman-faction, which means no 'Chaos' at all... my Obliterators are just 'warmagi' that wield raw warp to fire off destructive magic. I don't use a Daemon Prince, and my Sorcerer is in Termie armor, but still the same premise. I use 8+1 squads of Rubrics because 9 used to be their favored number way back.

I'll tell you the same thing that most people have told me; Rubrics aren't that strong. Now keep in mind, I don't really believe them. I love Rubrics, I think they're very strong Anvil units. They're durable as all hell, relentless for their bolters, and have Ap3. But they can't Snap Shot incoming charges which means that you need to worry about them being pounced on, and then they're no better than any other marine.

Other than that... I approve. Like I said, it reminds me of my lists. At the 2k level I double the Heldrakes and add a Retinue of LC termies for my Sorcerer, put a third pair of Oblits. Still no Prince.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks! :) yeah there are plenty of ways to make make a specific unit fit anyt theme really which is why I reallyy like writing fluff :p As for the list I'll probably play test it to see if there's something I don't really like or could benefit from adding/exchanging.

I'd really like to make the rubrics a little bigger in numbers, but didn't have the points I'm afraid.. hopefully they'll perform good anyways and hopefully I'll be able to rapid fire before they charge and bringing down their numbers.

what do you think of the hades autocannon for the helldrake? just realized I had a devastating smount of Ap3 death but not much at all to threaten a Draigo wing or any other TEQ heavy army. the S8 could help me here but I'm not sure about the BS of the heldrake to really make use of the HAC..?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So, what's your take on the hades autocannon vs baleflamer for the dragon?
and do anyone else have an opinion on the list, how to change it or how to make room for a few more rubrics?
 

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Id ssay that 4 shots at bs 3 aint much to have, baleflamer is just so many realible ap 3 str 6 hits its the way to go I feel, the torrent special rule really makes or breaks a template weapon for some models.

I would also like to say that Burning brand of skalathrax is a bargain, against MEQ and worse the burning brand is in my experience a reliable damage source unlike most of the tzeentch spells, i go lvl 1 with burning brand all the time, due to torrent the threat range is rather comfortable for a sorc hanging with rubrics.

EDIT: saw now that your dp had bbos, id say give it to a sorc instead, with I8, ws9 and 5 attacks base at str 6 ap2 the DP WANTS to get stuck in, and once he does, bbos is no longer put to use :)
 

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So, what's your take on the hades autocannon vs baleflamer for the dragon?
and do anyone else have an opinion on the list, how to change it or how to make room for a few more rubrics?
Hmm. Baleflamer vs HAC is a though choice; the high strength AP3 template is generally considered the better option, and is deadly against MeQ opponents--but your rubric marines and the BBoS already have your anti-MeQ capability well in hand. I'd say stick with the HAC, even though the Helldrake is only BS3, for anti-flyer capability.

The problem with trying to fit in more Rubrics...is they're really expensive. And they are terrible in close combat. And they die against small arms fire just as easily as a normal marine. They do one thing well: shooting. And that shooting done well is hampered by the fact that they can't fire Overwatch, so if you want to get in rapid-fire range, you only get one volley before you're charged...

EDIT: saw now that your dp had bbos, id say give it to a sorc instead, with I8, ws9 and 5 attacks base at str 6 ap2 the DP WANTS to get stuck in, and once he does, bbos is no longer put to use
I humbly disagree. The Prince isn't always going to make it into combat (turn 1, for instance), and giving him any shooting attack at all--much less one as good as the Burning Brand--increases his versatility greatly. Plus he can always roast much of the squad he's going to charge, then mop up the survivors more easily (not to mention face less Overwatch from them). If you're going to charge them afterwards, try to use the Prince's movement to get behind them, though, so if they break and run he can still charge the fleeing survivors with ease.

Meanwhile, the Sorc is likely to have at least one witchfire power, since 3 of the 4 tzeentchi powers are witchfire. That means that if he fires the BBoS he's not using his psychic powers to max effect. Who cares if the BBoS is better than his psychic powers' shooting if you're shooting his powers AND the BBoS on the Prince, rather than shooting only one of the two on the Sorc?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
thank you guys for commenting! :) yeah I agree that normally I'd go for the baleflamer but in an Ap3 packed list like this I believe I could actually benefit more from those 4 S8 shots. despite being BS3 it' probably the highest strength weapon a flyer has vs other flyers, and in most cases the few S8 shots will be enough to bring down other flyers as they're mainly not tougher than AV12. not sure on necrons though if theire flyers too have quantum shielding or not?

And I'd say that the sorcerer is certain to roll at least one witchfire power unless you can have the same power twice which I'm rather confident is not the case :wink:

yeah that's my issue it seems, to make the rubrics survive somehow..
I'm thinking of going with two rubric squads instead of three, making 10 model units to help them survive, what do you think of this?
witht he points I could.. say, make the prince a psyker which would be fun as then He'd be able to fire both a psychic shooting attack and the BBoS :victory:
although I'm not really sure about this, makes for one reeeally expensive HQ and only 2 troops..
 

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Hmm. What you could do is have 2 1ksons squads and one regular CSM squad (unmarked or with MoT--though I feel that MoT on regular CSM is something of a waste) with bolt pistols and close combat weapons. That also lets you get in some more anti-tank with 2 meltas.
 

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Necron fliers do not have quantum shielding meaning AV11, the problem with the hades is that your getting your hades and on an average getting 2 str 8 shots hit, which against av 11 is dangerous no doubt, however it does cost you 170 points for those 2 hits. All necron flyers on the other hand have the twinlinked tesla destructor, what does it do? well it has 4 shots and is twinlinked, if any of the "to hit" rolls is a 6 he gets 2 extra automatic hits for each 6 he rolled, all at str 7 and if he wants, with the skyfire special rule, >this I do not want to duel with<,especially not since these fliers all cost >around< 100.

I cannot ofc speak for other fliers but what I do know is that one of the strongest advantages of the heldrake is supposed to be its str 7 vector strike, on average 3 str 7 autohits on another flier, and since you have passed over it it cannot fire on you the next turn unless it is a "hover" type, and if it choose to fire on you while going into hover well then the rest of your army can fire at it :)))

TL:DR hades is strong but you cant hades autocannon and vector strike the same target, hence, I would recommend you to use vector strike for anti- air and then baleflame whatever is on the other side of the flier. Due to the movement rules for fliers (only turning 90 degrees before moving and having to move atleast 18 inches) really restricts of many rounds of shooting you can expect to get on other fliers with your hades and should such a situation arise your use of the dragon becomes really cost-inneffective.



About the flamer: It is true that the prince can really pull advantage of the bbos and when hes on solo missions it can mean ALOT, although my experience is that the bbos on a sorc many times means that your maximising ap3 potential each shooting turn instead of once in a while, although I face alot of necrons and marines, I have little to no affection for the tzeentchian witchfires, the primaris being unreliable both in strenght and hits, the beam being the most awesome doing both ANTI TEQ and anti vehicle and the breath of chaos requiring such close range that I barely see it happen (my experience is that you dont want to be that close with ksons, most opponents will charge since ksons cant overrun and fight just like regular marines in meele.

On a sidenote: I have mostly used my prince for flying down on one flank and smash some vehicle to death before going bananas on troops, monoliths and annihilation barges have been teared quickly and neatly.

Boon of mutation really isnt anything for me either, too random and risky,.


Rubrics die just like regular marines versus most enemies in the game although being almost twice the points, sad fact of life.

I weigh up what I percieve as rather "underpowered" (the costly rubrics, the spellbook withouth what I would call reliable spells) element of tzeentch csm with the definatly "overpowered" elements of tzeentch chaos deamons. In other words I use flamer and screamer allies ^^ cheese or not I wanna play tzeentch withouth getting too hampered.

Greetings and sorry for not keeping short.
 

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I was looking at a Warpsmith MoTz SoC, This would give you a 2+/3+ hq that can face down threats in combat with 4/5 pow axe attacks. He can also shoot his melta and his flamer in the same shooting phase, all for 150 points.
Nope, sorry. He only has access to the Chaos Gifts table, not to the Special Issue Wargear--meaning that he can only buy an Aura of Dark Glory, not a Sigil of Corruption. The Warpsmith is an underrated character, I feel: give him the BBoS, AoDG, and MoK and stick him in MoK Chosen with flamers and meltas... delicious!

I cannot ofc speak for other fliers but what I do know is that one of the strongest advantages of the heldrake is supposed to be its str 7 vector strike, on average 3 str 7 autohits on another flier, and since you have passed over it it cannot fire on you the next turn unless it is a "hover" type, and if it choose to fire on you while going into hover well then the rest of your army can fire at it ))
Unless you Vector Strike a Stormraven, in which case its twin-linked lascannon turret with a 360 degree FoV can spin around and hit you right in the rear armor while the 'Raven zooms on. Ouch.
 

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Have a hard time seeing how that autocannon is going to serve the drake any better than the flamer vs the raven, you can fly over it and vector it or it can fly over you and hit you in the rear anyways, both are fliers with 36 inches max movement while shooting, if he has decided to put that lascannon to good anti-air use, which he should he just might aswell do it.
'
If you are facing a raven anyways your baleflamer will be aiming at marines, which is probably the best use you can get from a baleflamer, most marines being autohitted, wounded on a 2+, getting no cover or armour saves and unlike necrons and their like they are not resurrecting afterwards.

And stormraven aside, the necron night and doomschytes have their twin linked tesla destructor which id say is to be feared, the vendetta assualt flier from IG has 3 Twin linked >hull mounted< lascannons, now that is something you DO NOT want to be infront of, ever, in which case your flying over them ASAP to get out of range, or so I see myself playing that out everytime I want my dragon to be alive.


On a sidenote: this is 40k and not a mathhammer comp game, its supposed to be fun and id say it stays fun if you go for what strikes you as cool, nice, interesting etc, in the end, a mechanical dragon-deamon with a gatling gun in its mouth is just so hardcore its insane.


Creep
 

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What I might suggest, and you don't have to agree (in fact, you probably wont), is to drop the Daemon Prince. with those points you can beef up your Rubric squads a bit. You can drop your Sorcerer to Mastery 1 and strap him with the Brand if you want, and then since he's ONLY mastery 1, you have a 50/50 chance of giving him the non-witchfire power, which could allow you to actually beef him up in close combat. If you wanted. You just need to decide what you're going to do with your Sorcerer... you really have no means of dealing with close combat. Even with the DP, you only had one good melee unit, which makes me leery. That being said, I did the same thing, with only a Sorcerer and some Terminators as my h2h unit.

As for the lack of Overwatch, that's very true, but with SnP, you have an effective bolter range of 30" if you're moving forward. Sure, you can't take a charge with bolters... but I say there's no Overwatch becayuse of how good those Inferno bolts are.
 
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