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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just picked up the new Chaos Army set with the codex included. I have never played the Chaos marines, I am an avid orc player. I wanted another army and these guys seemed only natural because I love the bad guys. Needless to say the models fantastic and I read the codex and this going to be a fun army to play. I am looking for some suggestions on what heavy support works well with these guys. I have the Defiler that came with the set. I was thinking a Vindicator. Any other suggestions would be welcome. I have army builder 3.1 I was wondering if anyone knows how long they usually take to update the codex . Maybe I'm a little slow but I do not see terminators on the Black Legion list and the points do not matchup on some of the troops.I have only been playing for 6 or 7months and have been strictly playing orcs.Thanks in advance for any suggestions[/quote]
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Their standard policy regarding updates to army builder is to wait at least a month after the official release of the codex before releasing updates to AB

Check here for details
 

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You're much better off just using the codex and paper. That way you get to learn much of the details by rote, and if you do it regularly you get quite good at it. I've had the Chaos codex for four days and I've already memorised the common options in it, it's not that hard.

Learning your codex instead of having your codex learnt for you by a computer means several good things.

First off, it's money saved.

Secondly, you know when people are cheating. If I played against a cheater and I built by codex, I'd know that they were screwing with the rules. If I had used army builder, I'd have to get lucky.

Thirdly, bugs. Until a long time after a codex has been released, it's got holes aplenty. You have to go over your final list against the real codex anyway or run the risk of playing illegal armies, and if you're doing that you might as well cut out the middleman.

Fourthly, it means you can improvise lists on the fly. Give me points, game and opponent and I can customise a list I already have or build a new one tailored to fit from the codex in five to twenty minutes. If you use army Builder often, you can't do that. In fact, use it too much and you have trouble building lists away from your computer at all.

Finally, it works now, not in a month. In the month it takes for you to get the army list, you could easily have memorised the entire codex and every option in it. The new format makes this easier too.
 

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What a great idea!

And I'm gonna start "Army Player"!

For a monthly fixed for of... oh I dunno, 14usd or L8sterling (don't know what that is in Australian NZ Canadian or SA currency, but I only invented it 2 mins ago, so bear with me), you send me your list and I go and play the game for you. Then I emai you to tell you if you won! Saves so much time and effort - it's a wonder no-one thought of it before! Removes all the hassle of finding opponents/having to hang out with fat bearded nerds with BO and no social skills (says a podgy stubly nerd who hasn't showered this morning and is currently talking to a computer nstead of 'real' people)/means you are never seen hanging out at a games shop by your cooler friends!

Yup, I think this one could run and run...

FFS, and you have to pay for this? I was looking at thinking, yeah, I ca see that could be quite useful if you were in a hurry but wanted to try something different, but weren't feeling inspired... but then I sw that actually have to pay... blimey. Why not just hand the codex over to a friend who likes solving maths puzzles? I'm sure they'd do it for free (every gamer does have a nerdy friend who likes doing maths puzzles, right? It's not just me, is it?)

:cyclops:
 

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El, the official handling of the datafiles for new codices is to wait one month before releasing a file for it in order to appease GW. As I am a beta tester for the Chaos file, I can tell you that as of this moment basic marines, Plague Marines, and Noise Marines are finished and working. Won't be long before you see a full datafile for chaos.


For those who scoff at the idea of Armybuilder, try it first. By all means, learn to make a list by hand first, learn your own codex inside and out for sure, but don't knock the program. I have found nothing better for quickly checking out the points you would need to spend in order to try a new unit or something similar. I can make a full chaos list with the previous rules using AB in less than 5 minutes. Damn useful tool to have.
 

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Yeah. I ow have almost every point cost and rules stuck in my head from the DA codex. Give me points, terrain setup and oppenent, I give you an army. I have tried the army builder, but as said above, they have lots of holes and just basically add everything up for you. You don't learnt anything.
 

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I've got the old BA codex memorized to the point where I could whip up a list with just a pencil and paper and be dead on.

But AB is *very* handy for when you're just spitballing ideas for new armies, new themes. Memorizing the codex is handy but generally it only works best when it;s the same few options you always take. If you;re looking at something new, AB is quick and handy.

I always audit my lists anyway, so I'm not terribly concerned if something's a little off. I can always fix it. But it;s good to be ab;e to just throw an idea out onto the screen and in a couple minutes have a good idea of what it'd cost.
 

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Wraith, I'll assume that I'm one of the scoffers you refer to...

In my defence, I'll say I'm not actually scoffing. I have no idea how well it works, but I'm assuming it's quite good. I did say I thought it might be useful in certain circumstances. And if someone has the chutzpah/cajones to charge someone else to make a list, well, more power to them, if they can find people willing to pay. I just find it pretty extraordinary, that's all. Though to be fair, I find the idea of identikit uberspam netlists pretty weird too. I think lists should be an expression (in rules terms) of how you see your army. But then, I'm an old hippy fluffmonger.

I am absolutely serious about Army Player too (well..). If anyone wants to send me their list, and money, for me to play 40k for them, I'm really quite happy to do it. In fact, I might be able to offer an all-in deal where you send me lots of money, an an army title, I get Army Builder to make the list, I play the game, and you get the result! You don't have to do anything except invent a name (and send money)!

Sorry, sounds like I'm scoffing again, I'm really not, just amazed...

:cyclops:
 

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You only pay once for the software, and it's not all that much. Less than a new videogame, but something you can use for years, with constant free updates.

Try the demo. It limits you to smaller lists (I think the demo caps at, what, 1k points?) but it gives you an idea of how it works.

And if you're the dishonest sort, there's plenty of pirated copies out on the net.
 

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Yeah, the demo has a small small limit.

AB was like 15 bucks. Free updates. Great for spitballing as Galahad said.

Very useful
 

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I'm sorry, being British, I have no idea what spitballing means, beyond the idea that it's got something to do with experimenting or trying something new.

No, really, I'm not knocking it. I jusy don't see the point. "Buy a codex from Games Workshop; then buy a program for half as much again that saves you the bother of reading your codex." I'm sure the program is fine, the free updates are nice, I'm sure it would be handy in certain circumstances eg if you're in hurry; but as I don't often play games at 10 minutes' notice, I'll stick to pencil and paper, thanks. Honestly I'm lazy enough anyway. If I had it I'd want to get my money's worth ie use it more than necessary.

Compared to the old days, 'new points' are a doddle even with pencil and paper (hurrah there are no more half- and quarter-points! Hurrah that standard weapons are included in points costs! Hurrah that the table of points costs of various weapons is in the same book as the points costs of the troops! etc etc)

:cyclops:
 

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I just don't see the use of paying money for someone else to count numbers, because that's all it does. Even then it does it at just as fast as I do, and has a lot more bugs than I do.
 

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uberschveinen said:
You're much better off just using the codex and paper. That way you get to learn much of the details by rote, and if you do it regularly you get quite good at it. I've had the Chaos codex for four days and I've already memorised the common options in it, it's not that hard.

Learning your codex instead of having your codex learnt for you by a computer means several good things.

First off, it's money saved.

Secondly, you know when people are cheating. If I played against a cheater and I built by codex, I'd know that they were screwing with the rules. If I had used army builder, I'd have to get lucky.

Thirdly, bugs. Until a long time after a codex has been released, it's got holes aplenty. You have to go over your final list against the real codex anyway or run the risk of playing illegal armies, and if you're doing that you might as well cut out the middleman.

Fourthly, it means you can improvise lists on the fly. Give me points, game and opponent and I can customise a list I already have or build a new one tailored to fit from the codex in five to twenty minutes. If you use army Builder often, you can't do that. In fact, use it too much and you have trouble building lists away from your computer at all.

Finally, it works now, not in a month. In the month it takes for you to get the army list, you could easily have memorised the entire codex and every option in it. The new format makes this easier too.

I tried Army Builder a while ago and have to agree with Uber on most points from a personal point of veiw. I have not got as far as memorising stuff yet. :)

But I don't see much point in having AB.
I type up lists in Word after the scribbling on paper stage, then print them out for games or copy them into a post.
I keep all my printed army lists I have used in a folder with notes on what worked or not and how scrawled on them during games for future reference. This also means I can yank a list at short notice from the folder.Which works for me.

But its whatever works best for you I suppose. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for all the input. I learned on AB to build my ork armies. Last night I wanted to play the chaos against my son and did it straight from the book. I have to say that I actually remembered more stuff than I usually would have by writing it all down instead of using AB(it still took 2 hours to get the list together).In AB's defense it is great for making sample armies to see how everything would work before you spend that xtra cash on more models. This is one expensive hobby. I will still use AB but I took the advice of some people on this thread and I like writing everything down definitly helps in memorizing what is in the codex.
 

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the free updates are only available for 1 year, then you have to renew the licence if you want automatic updates. You still have access to the updates if you don't renew the licence, but you have to update manually which isn't that hard.

I like AB - everything you need, relatively speaking, is there. It also allows you access to other army rules and saves you the expense of reading/buying other 'dexes so you know you're not being done by opponents.
 

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The idea isn't to make it so you never have to read your codex, it's just a time/trouble saver. I'm not saying everyone has to use it. I'm just saying using it doesn't make you some ignorant, lazy misanthrope who can't be bothered to add numbers himself (which is the vibe I get from some posts).

I like it because it lets me try something new without having to borrow a codex, or remember every last detail of every book I own. Can I do a list from scratch on my own? Yes. I can do math too, but I still own a calculator. I can move about under my own power, but I have a vehicle. Why sit in a nice comfy chair when you can stand or sit perfectly well on the floor?

AB is a big comfy chair. You don't need it, but it's nice to sit and relax with

And 'spitballing' basically means tossing around new ideas, brainstorming, testing ideas, etc.
 
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