[Jdojo18]

Quick question guys:

I plan on building up a Nurgle knight with the release of the experimental chaos knight rules that just dropped from forgeworld, and I was wondering about something. For a price increase, you can turn it into a daemon knight of nurgle. In the description, it says that the daemon knight counts as being a daemon aligned with nurgle. Is this only talking about bonuses that say, a tzeentch player would get or when figuring out if the warp storm table affects it? Or does my new nurgle knight get a 5++ along with shrouded and defensive grenades?

 

[venomlust]

That is a point of contention right now, as Forge World is just fucking incapable of giving a straightforward answer. However convoluted, it does appear that they're the same thing.

Here is one answer recently from Natfka which commenters interpret as Daemon of X is the same as Daemon dedicated to X:

Forgeworld Answers
A daemon of X is for all intense and purposes aligned in any way to the chosen daemon (nurgle, tzeench, khorne, slaanesh) meaning gains the benefit of that daemon lore from the chosen publication (not all but only for the chosen army that it will be with)

So for all "intense" and purposes, they're the same thing. The line about being limited to the chosen army doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since daemons of x have the same rules in codex CSM and Daemons. I suppose we must assume "gains the benefit of that daemon lore" is the same as getting the special rules associated with being a daemon of x.

A poster on B&C made a thread with his back and forth conversation with FW about the same and similar issues from the IA:13 book, with the same quality of answers. Those conversations indicated that "Daemon of X" and "Daemon aligned with X" are not the same thing. I can't link it right now because B&C's server is dead, or something. The conclusion that they aren't the same thing could simply be due to the shitty quality of the answers.

Hope that helps!

 

[neferhet]

In my humble opinion, since the relevant bonus are listed in the second page of the pdf, the Rule "Demon Knight of..." is self explanatory: you get the demon, hatred (X) and another rule listed in the unsanctioned rules.
You are NOT a Daemon of..., you are a Daemon Knight of... and the relevant rules are those listed on the pdf.
The aligned thing is useful only to blood thite type of thing or the chaos storm roll for daemons (also, for demonic hatred)

 

[venomlust]

I'm inclined to agree that they're separate rules completely, and it's the quality of the answers FW has given that clouded the issue.

For units other than the knights, though, the issue isn't as clear-cut. Thinking of various units in IA:13.

 

[neferhet]

Oh, God help us when FW tries to answer a rules-question...

 

[mayegelt]

Yeah rules is clear as day.
You get the bonus of being Daemon and Hatred of X, + the bonus that it lists. You also count as being Aligned with X as well.
So you do not get Daemon or Mark of X. Same went for the Warhound and the other ones they did.

 

[venomlust]

It isn't clear as day for units other than the knights, though. That was the point of the answer from FW from the natfka article.

 

[Vaz]

Quick question guys:

I plan on building up a Nurgle knight with the release of the experimental chaos knight rules that just dropped from forgeworld, and I was wondering about something. For a price increase, you can turn it into a daemon knight of nurgle. In the description, it says that the daemon knight counts as being a daemon aligned with nurgle. Is this only talking about bonuses that say, a tzeentch player would get or when figuring out if the warp storm table affects it? Or does my new nurgle knight get a 5++ along with shrouded and defensive grenades?

This is really obvious. It counts as being a Daemon aligned with nurgle when some effect is reliant on something being a Daemon of Nurgle.

For example a theoretical special rule says that "all shooting attacks made by Daemons of Nurgle gain the Poisoned 4+ special rule". That would mean that a Chaos Knight gets the rule.

 

[neferhet]

So the tally from epidemius would cont the knight in? that's tasty.

 

[Vaz]

Found the trouble with that though; "Daemon Aligned with Nurgle" is not actually a rules parlance XD.

The true rules parlance is "Daemon of Nurgle". If FW wrote it "It's a Daemon of Nurgle, but has the following special rules instead..." it would be better. I'm composing an email to FW at the minute about that, on the off chance they've not already blocked me.

 

[mayegelt]

So for all "intense" and purposes, they're the same thing. The line about being limited to the chosen army doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since daemons of x have the same rules in codex CSM and Daemons. I suppose we must assume "gains the benefit of that daemon lore" is the same as getting the special rules associated with being a daemon of x.

The rules for Daemon of X isn't the same in the CSM and Daemons (though remember this might also be trying to futureproof it against Daemonkin books as well.
For instance
Daemons of Tzeentch from Daemon book get +3LD on Psy spells, CSM doesn't.
Daemons of Nurgle from Daemon book get Defensive Grenades (as long as they all have it), while CSM doesn't.
Also remember with Daemonkin book it seems like the Kytan and Knight as well as a few other things seem to have been given the BFTBG rule.

Daemon aligned to Nurgle is not Daemon of Nurgle or Mark of Nurgle.
The rules for Daemon of Nurgle confer particular other rules to the people with it, as does Mark of Nurgle.
What this does mean is as someone said, a Daemon Knight of Nurgle would add to the tally of Epidemius. Equally it means things like the CSM spell "Nurgle's Rot" (not that it could hurt the Knight) would not be able to as it can not effect Daemons of Nurgle and models with the Mark of Nurgle.

One of the Most important things in respect to FW though for this would be that you could include it in a PURGE army. All models in Purge need to be Nurgle or Unmarked. This means that you can not take models like Belakor as he is Marked differently.

 

[venomlust]

Oh man, I totally forgot about those other rules in the daemons book.

 

[mayegelt]

Another strange thing for you... this time not good.

RAI vs RAW one here for you.
As i put before you can get a nice 2++ save for your Daemon-Knight. Well there is a downside to...

Santic : Banishment - Banishment is a malediction that targets a single unit with the Daemon special rule within 24". Whilst this power is in effect, all models in the target unit suffer a -1 penalty to their invulnerable save (normally reducing it to 6+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save, but cannot make it worse than 6+.

This does not say it modifys the daemon save but the Invuln save. So this also means they could screw with your ion shield. Also as Malediction are cumulative then they could throw 2 of that spell at the knight to put it down to only a 6++ before wrecking it with direct heavy firepower.

Sanctuary can also slow you down as well...

 

[Jdojo18]

Wow, i'm glad I asked this question hah it seems like it's been bounced around a few times. Thanks for the great answers.

I'll prolly still make my own knight, and run it as it says in the FW rules without counting it as a nurgle daemon or mark of nurgle. A shrouded knight sounded cheesy anyways.

That being said, a grimoire boosting a knight is scary...

 

[neferhet]

A shrouded knight sounded cheesy anyways.

being daemon already a 5+ cover save was just redundant

 

[mayegelt]

Daemon isn't a cover save. But that shrouded can do is if you shove it near buildings you can easily get a 2+ cover

 

[neferhet]

what i meant was: being daemon a 5++, having a 5+ cover is Mostly redundant. also, if you hug cover with a knight, you are playing it wrong.

 

[MidnightSun]

Fire Shield, step up to the plate; gives your Knight a non-ignorable Overwatch and a 2+ cover save (okay, it doesn't work against Meltas, but that's why you have the Ion Shield).

 

[Mossy Toes]

Another strange thing for you... this time not good.

RAI vs RAW one here for you.
As i put before you can get a nice 2++ save for your Daemon-Knight. Well there is a downside to...

This does not say it modifys the daemon save but the Invuln save. So this also means they could screw with your ion shield. Also as Malediction are cumulative then they could throw 2 of that spell at the knight to put it down to only a 6++ before wrecking it with direct heavy firepower.

Sanctuary can also slow you down as well...

That's such a cool rules interaction. Even being on the losing side of it, as per what armies I have... damn, that's nice.

 

[mayegelt]

Did a nice email to forgeworld the other day.
However a rules question has popped up for us. In fact a few have...

1) By giving the Chaos Knight the Daemon Knight of X, does it give the bonuses normally given to the Daemons of X, Aka does Tzeentch reroll 1s on saves, Nurgle gets Slow and Purposeful and Shrouded. If this is the case do they get these bonuses based on the CSM book versions or the Daemon versions (as Nurgle gets defensive grenades).
Personally opinion says no they do not. Mainly due to the fact that you clearly express that they get Hatred for X opposing god, and the Daemon of X rules include that, so would not need mentioning.

2) Of course the great thing about being a Daemon is using stuff like Grimoire or Cursed Earth on them to improve the saving throw. However if you cast the Banishment on him you reduce their invulnerable save by 1 per time it hits. Now this part is where it gets a little strange. Normally a Daemon model will have no other Invulnerable saves, however the Daemon Knight has the Ion Shield. Would Banishment also reduce that save down. Technically by the wording of the spell
Quote
"Banishment is a malediction that targets a single unit with the Daemon special rule within 24". Whilst this power is in effect, all models in the target unit suffer a -1 penalty to their invulnerable save (normally reducing it to 6+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon's invulnerable save, but cannot make it worse than 6+."
it doesn't just affect the Daemons Invulnerable save but just the Invulnerable save of the model, though can only be targeted at Daemons. I can see it both ways as surely it isn't breaking the energy shield of the Ion Shield, but equally if you are unbinding the Daemon in the Walker then it is possible that it is going to be a little distracted or suffers power lose to prevent the shield from working.

3) Is the only way to get the Chaos Knight of Khorne in a Daemonkin army to have to take a Combined Arms Detachment. Because the Kytan says
Quote
In addition, it may be selected instead of a Khorne Lord of Skulls in any Detachment where such a War Machine is available.
While the Chaos Knight does not. So could not be taken in a Blood Host as it has no LOW slot (or Fortification one... but that is another of my gripes about the new detachments..). Should the rules say that it can also be taken as a "War Machine" Auxiliary choice.

I know this is turning in to an epically long mail now...

My 4th question is slightly off topic but still a good one I think.
There is no massive urgency in the requests, but would be good to know, and also printing some FAQs could be good, especially concerning Daemonkin and previous Imperial Armour Book Vehicles.
Oh and are the Dreadnaughts going to get the additional +2 attacks that the Space Marine and Dark Angel ones did in their latest books?



FORGEWORLD REPLY
Hi,
Thank you for your email. The answers to yuor questions are as follows -

1. If you give the Chaos Knight, the Daemon Knight of X, it does gain the benefit of the Mark in question. The variation of the Mark it receives depends upon which force it is in. So, if it was in a Nurgle Daemon Army, the Mark of Nurgle would act as per the Nurgle Daemon army Mark bonuses. If it was in a CSM force, then the Mark of Nurgle benefits for this would be used.

2. The Banishment would effect both his Daemon Save and his Ion shield save as they are both invulnerable.

3. Until any errata on this is released by the Forge World Design studio on this, we would suggest it takes the same role as the Kytan/Lord of Skull in the Daemonkin Codex.

4.Our rules team are currently working on several FAQs and errata to update our older publications and these will be released in the near future. We will, of course, pass your questions on to them.
In the meantime we suggest using the standard (non Contemptor) Dreadnoughts with four attacks rather than the printed amount. Please note that this isn't an official ruling as these will only appear in the errata/faq documents that we release.