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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, I got to play test my mechanized list
Here's the quick and dirty version

HQ
Mephy
Lemmy
HG w/2 Melta & 1 PF, HB Razorback

Elite
10 man DC, no packs

Troops
5-man Tac w/Plas, LC Razorback
5-man Tac w/Plas, LC Razorback

Fast
MM Attack Bike
MM Attack Bike
MM Attack Bike

Heavy
Baal, HB Sponsons
Baal, HB Sponsons
Land Raider Crusader

The idea was for the ICs to travel behind the raider and the DC to travel inside it.

His list was (as far as I can recall)

He had the trait that let his tacs and devs infiltrate, and the drawback that let me have an extra turn if I want.

Captain w/power weapon
JP chaplain

AC Dred w/drop pod
5 Termies (AC, ML, 2x chainfist)

3 8-man tactical squads (2 infiltrated) woth ML and plas
8-man scout snipers w/heavy bolter

6-man assault w/plas
Tornado Speeder

Whirlwind
Vindicator (POTMS)
and a hastily assembled 8-man dev with a HB, LC and ML and they infitrate

The cap was with one of the tacticals (the one that didn't infiltrate) and the chappy was with the assault squad


The first mission was Take and Hold, and ended with me conceding at about turn 4.

he set his heavy weapons up close and butchered my transports right out of the gate. Broke one of my baals early on too. The other Baal survived long enough to decimate one of his tacticals, before getting broken by the survivor's ML.

The Crusader butchered his dev squad in retaliation for the transport they smoked, but then hung itself up on terrain the following turn. Eventually it was slagged by his vindi

He used his whirlwind well, laying out mines ot choke up the surviving, lighter-armored vehicles/ There was too much terrian on the board (my fault) so that really worked against me.

The plasma squads holed up on buildings when their transports got smoked, and survived unharmed, but also dodn;t get to do a lot of damage and never got close to the objective.

the HG performed well, but their transport was slagged early on as well. When he dropped his dread behind me the HG doubled back and smoked it on the following turn, but not before his dread could gun down lemartes (he was able to drop in behind my lines)

The DC ended up deploying before they were meant to and without lemmy they were forced to move towards the wrong targets.

About the only units that performed as expected were the bokes. They worked great, though I had some terrible penetration rolls. It took three tries (teice out of melt range) before I managed to penetrate ins vindicsator, and even then all I did was immobilize and stun it (which didn;t stop it firing) when I moved into its rear armor and melta'd it. In fristration, I checked my army list and realized Jervis gave them krak grenades, so I charged in after that and wound up slagging the damned thing with a krak to the back (I actually thanked Jervis Johnson for that one)

I ended up giving up once my DC was dragged away from the objective and my only scoring units were stuck in the back.

This game suffered from very poor luck on my part, and too much terrain. But the transports were distressingly easy to break. He got first go, and he was able to infiltrate his pesky missile launchers right into the perfect positions to smoke my tanks


The second game was a cleanse mission, and ended in him conceding to me, but it was hard fought.

Again, he won first turn. This time he systematically destroyed both Baals, immobilized one razorback and destroyed one other before his shooting phase was over.

That SUCKED!

When my turn came around I charged the land raider for his strongpoint in his home quarter, intent upon unleashing the DC into his main force. Unfortunately, I rolled a 3 on the terrain check during my assault phase and as a result of that and the crowded floor they were on in the building, I was only able to bring about three or four DC in on the charge. The rest had to pile in.

Likewise, because of crowding the DC in in preperation for assault, I wasn't able to get Meph and Lem into the fray right away. Meph joined in turn two, but lem had ti waiut til turn 3 because of a pathetic terrain roll for his assault move

The DC did pretty well, but he had both his captain and his chaplain there, so despite only suffering one or two losses from the normal troops, over the course of 3 turns, they were all cut down by the ICs with their power weapons. They killed a lot of troopers though, and only the ICs were able to do any damage.

Mephiston, however, was a rape machine. Even though I forgot his might of heroes, he was still able to kill his captain before he could swing back, then finish up the remaining tactical squad. Lemartes came in late but got lucky and cut hi chaplain down

His terminators and drop pod dread were late in coming, and the dreadnought was blown up by a meltabike right after arriving.

Again, the bikes did well, and were able to destroy his vindicator and react instantly to his dreadnought.

The HG did fairly well too. Their transport (because it only had HBs) was ignored the first turn and managed to make it into a nearby building. Unfortunately, he wasn't deep enough in to avoid being shot up but he dev squad. But the HG survived and only lost one man to incoming fire while they were entangled. The next turn they made it out of the building and were able to shoot then charge his 8-man devs with 4 HG and wipe them to the last man. This left them in possession of the table quarter, which was nice, since they were stranded again.

The crusader moved into a neighboring quarter once the DC was dropped off ad began whittling away at the tactical squad that was claiming it. I was about to drive it into the building and finish them off when he conceded.

So far the only consistently successful elements have been Mephiston, the bikes, the crusader and the DC.

The baals got blown early and when they did survive, I found to my dismay that a hail of AP4 rounds doesn't do a whole lot against 3+ saves.

I really love the concept of having every man on a bike or in a transport, but SM transports really suck...
 

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So far the only consistently successful elements have been Mephiston, the bikes, the crusader and the DC.
...
I really love the concept of having every man on a bike or in a transport, but SM transports really suck...
Overall, the thing that looks weirdest about this list to me is you only have 20 guys (edit: no, there's really 25, not including ICs). I'd recommend, not fewer units in really sucky transports, but more if you can. He can't take all of them out, can he? I know the Rhino-rush is hardly the done thing these days, but perhaps it's due for a comeback?

If the Baals aren't working, how about dropping them? That'll free up a heap of points (enough to get you another Crusader... difficult to see who to put in it though...) (edit: how about the Honour Guard that you consistently fail to notice, Orc you brainless... orc?) Anyway Galahad, if the ICs are in the second Crusader too, that's two Crusaders and two Laserbacks rushing towards the enemy intent on disgorging troops, allowing you to drop the HB razorback, giving you a bunch more points to play with...

Just my first (and second) somewhat random thoughts...

 

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Executive Nitpicker
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8,276 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Easier said than done. 5 marines without any special weapons runs me 115 points, plus another 40 just for a rhino.

Dropping both baals would buy me maybe another razorback squad and perhaps a powerfist or two. One fragile target in exchange for two strong ones.
 

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Easier said than done. 5 marines without any special weapons runs me 115 points, plus another 40 just for a rhino.

Dropping both baals would buy me maybe another razorback squad and perhaps a powerfist or two. One fragile target in exchange for two strong ones.
Yeah, sorry, I'm not being clear.

The first and second paragraphs in my post don't necessarily go together. But as they don't seem to be working, dropping the preds seems to be the way forward. That frees up 250pts which you could buy another Crusader with, for your HG & ICs, allowing you to drop the HB razorback, thereby giving you some more points to spend on... another attack bike?

OR; you could more fundamentally re-tool your army towards a rhino-rush-type force; again, drop the preds (I'm not a big fan of tanks as you probably already know!), to get another tac squad with laserback; and maybe lose Lemmy too if he's not working; if you also drop an attack bike, that'll give you enough points for a HB razorback and melta-armed tac squad, for instance (weird suggestion, I know, but it's just numbers off the top of my head at the moment - not done the math, but you should still have about 50pts left; so it might not be necessary to drop the attack bike, or potentially possible to re-tool a fourth tac squad more sensibly).

On exchanging two strong targets for one fragile one, I see your point, but if the two strong targets are that good, why are you complaining about them? If all they are doing is soaking up heavy weapons fire until they blow, that could be seen as bad (point-sinks that are bound to be eventually destroyed) or good (fire-magnets that take the heat of your other units), but you have to decide which it is, and if they're worth it. But no, I wouldn't advocate just swapping two preds for one rhino- or razor-squad, that does seem like a bad swap, hence a few ideas how to make the points for another rhino- or razor-squad. After all, a Crusader, three laserbacks, a rhino or HB razorback, and three attack bikes bearing down on your gunline (even if it does infiltrate) is not to be sneezed at.

 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It's not that Lemmy isn't working, just that he hasn't consistently performed as well as the aforementioned elements. 'Sides, without a chaplain, the DC goes nuts and starts chasing cars. I thought about replacing him with a standard chaplain, but that'd only save a few points and end up giving up the deathmask and a wound.

I'm not sure how much I like the idea of pairing down the armored units, either...it just gives them more heavy weapons to point at what's left..

Not trying to be difficult, and I appreciate the help.
 

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No worries mate; sorry I haven't been more helpful...

OK, if you want to keep the army mobile, and if you're reluctant to drop the preds, or Lemmy, and everything else is working except the HB razorback Honour Guard, and the Lazerback tac squads, it seems (since you obviously can't drop your 2 compulsory troops) that really the only place to squeeze points is from the Honour Guard.

Otherwise, rather than list fluffing, the only option is alternative tactics (hmm, Galahad's posted this in the 'Tactics' forum... I wonder if that's a clue? Nah, can't be...). To be honest though, against infiltrate, I'd think the best thing would be something that moved quite fast but could still attack (unlike disembarking tac squads)... a speeder maybe, or a jump-pack assault unit. I know you want the attack bikes, and you don't want guys with jump packs, but you need to be able to knock out his tankbusting, infiltrating infantry with something (sorry, this is stating the bleedin' obvious really). I mean, running over them with the Crusader is I'm sure pretty funny, but it can't be everywhere, and you need to be able to take them out - or he's likely to keep on popping your transports.

 

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To be honest you are really making things hard for yourself by doing mech BA. Rhino rush is seldom used for a reason to be honest. It's more like "rhino be popped and entangled in our deployment zone" these days. I just can't imagine a rhino based army having a hope against a decent Tau, eldar or necron army. Tank transports got hit too hard (in my opinion) in 4th edition and probably aren't now viable.

This actually works out to have vehicles getting slowly removed from more and more lists. Remove the transports and you have a lot fewer targets for the other guy's AT stuff, so your shooty tanks die faster and are less effective. There's a substantial move towards all infantry armies as a result.

Drop pods might be interesting. Some BA units, assault squads and vet assault squads at least, can get them for free in exchange for their jump packs. All infantry with a load of jump guys backed up by devastators could also be pretty good. This would probably be too much of a departure for you.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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8,276 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm willing to entertain the idea of drop pods, but my experiences fighting against drop pods seems to be that they're either one-hit wonders or suicide squads. They drop in, blow something up and are then either stranded or gunned down. It's definitely something to consider, but it;d mean giving up a good chunk of firepower
 
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