Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 54 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey there!

Im back into Warhammer with a bunch of friends. I picked up the chaos codex but not sure where to start. Iv been coming here the last two weeks checking out peoples army lists and stuff but still a little lost. Seems Khorne is really popular at the moment but im not sure that's really where I want to go.

Things iv been looking at that I think are cool:

The new forgefiends and Maulerfiends

Hell brutes

Warp smiths

No idea how good they are but they look rad... So yeah. The 3 army's I will be facing most will be Necrons,Tau and Imperial Guard(these are the mates that play a lot of 40k). The Tzench stuff I Thought was pretty cool but from what I hear you need to own a lot of demons to make them shine(demon summoning). I dont really have the cash for 2 army's heh. I also really like Slannesh but I dont think the noise marines will be any use against Tau. Nurgles awesome but doesn't really seem to have much stuff. Kinda sucks they dont have the demons as part of their codex.

Sorry for the wall of random banter. Just wanted to share my thoughts. Thought it might help build me a list. Im obviously going to keep building up from 1k to around 1.5-1.75k. So some good starting stuff to build more specialised stuff on top of would be great. I dont want a garbage functioning army though :p You have to win sometimes for it to be fun.

I currently own 3 bikes and 20 cultists which I bought off a friend.

Thanks for reading! Any help would be very appreciated!
 

·
Herald of The Warp
Joined
·
2,752 Posts
All right, let's have a look - Mind you the guy you really need to talk to is @Mossy Toes as he's the big cahuna around here in regards to tactics.

The 3 army's I will be facing most will be Necrons,Tau and Imperial Guard(these are the mates that play a lot of 40k).
Considering you're talking about Maulerfiends, Forgefiends and general mech, Necrons is going to be a tough army - Tau as well. Both of them have plenty of high strength or auto-glancing abilities that will make life tough for your vehicles and walkers.

They can be great support, but against those two armies I would vary with too much machinery. Just a bit of a advice.

The Tzench stuff I Thought was pretty cool but from what I hear you need to own a lot of demons to make them shine(demon summoning)
This is mostly if you run Daemons though and not Chaos Space Marines. Tzeentch can work with terminators, but overall it's not that good at the moment. At least I have not had that much luck with it.

I also really like Slannesh but I dont think the noise marines will be any use against Tau.
Noise Marines are ace against Tau - With blastmasters (you can have 2 of them per 5 man) you have a 48'', STR 8, AP3 small blast with pinning and ignore cover. It absolutely wrecks Firewarriors, Kroots and even Crisis suits. I always run 10 of these guys with 2 Blastmasters and they have never failed me - You can shoot longer than most Tau and you take away their armor AND cover saves.

Nurgles awesome but doesn't really seem to have much stuff. Kinda sucks they dont have the demons as part of their codex.
Nurgle can be good, but I play very offensively so I don't sue them that much. If you want a unit that is practically impossible to get off an objective though, Nurgle Marines are ace. If you want a big guy, run Typhus and get access to zombies - If you can get yourself to paint 70 Zombies, you have 2 giant blobs of slow but sturdy objective holders that will take one hell of a beating.

The way I see it, you need to figure out what your playstyle is; Is it up close and personal? Heavy artillery? A mid-range shooty army? When you know this we can help you out :)

I hope the above helps a bit though!
 

·
JUGGERNUT
Joined
·
2,558 Posts
Only one minor addition, Blastmaster is 1 per 5 Noise Marines, max 2 with 10.

Be'lakor could be a good addition to your army, whether you play Daemons or CSM. Arguably our best (though most expensive) HQ choice, he has access to all the psychic powers in the Telepathy discipline. You could use a Tzeentch Lord of Change model if you prefer that aesthetic, and just have him count as Be'lakor. Or pick up the model itself and paint him up or convert him to look CHANGED.

His points cost usually means you have less units on the table, so in a strange way he helps your wallet, too. :so_happy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
Well, it looks like you are talking about a nice Warp touched Machine cult here...I love that. Technoheresy is the best. Well, to be honest Heresy is the best..anyway...

I'd go on a fluffy and mixed assault-shooting approach:

Warpsmith

20 cultists
2 flamers
(210)

Forgefiend

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend
(425)

5 Marines
flamer
meltabombs
Rhino
(120)

5 Marines
flamer
meltabombs
Rhino
(120)

4 Bikers
2 plasmaguns
meltabombs
(125)

1000 pts on the spot.
The Warpsmith is there to fix the forgefiend, adding to its natural it will not die. The cultist horde is meatshield for warpsmith and melee help for the forgefiend in case of assault. Marines in rhino and Maulerefiends work in tandem to capture objectives and cripple tanks and hordes alike. Bikers act as reinforcements and fast intervention unit.

If you want to have a go at 1500 i'd add a second CAD with:

Warpsmith
10 cultists
20 cultists
2 Heavy stubber
(310)

Predator
H. Bolter sponson
Autocannon
Extra combibolter
(100)

Predator
Twin Lascannon Turret
Lascannon sponson
(140)

Mind you, i'm not talking of high competitiveness here, just some funny lists, with Dark Mechanicum theme (lots of meatshields bubblewrapping elite units punching in with monstruous daemonic machines)

Hope this helps
Cheers! (and... GLORY TO CHAOS!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Wow guys/girls thanks heaps for all the info! I was aware that the fiends may be garbage against Tau and Necron. I think I was just hoping they secretly not and I just didnt know it : <

However I did not know that about the noise marines! I was actually considering painting my army as Emperors Children! Though id try keep demon signs to a minimum. Just so I could swap them to whatever whenever. Those models on forge world for them look sick. Just add some spikes and bam. Chaos

So im quite interesting in playing mid range. I like close range but it appears you need to go with a lot of bikes and raptors for that. Not really my kinda thing. Though I have some bikes so I could always tack some on. I actually have a demon price I could buy off someone for 20 so Be'lakor is also a possibility! Im not super keen on painting 70 cultists . I could do it for a side project however. Everyones selling them cheap at the moment because of those dark vengeance packs :p

Slannesh is kinda mid to close range right? I dunno. I think I just really want to use noise marines haha. Love their look and the idea of them. Im really loving the idea of them being good against Tau too! what iv red to do when fighting tau is to just run a million bikes and jetbacks across the map to spoil their day. Wasnt really too keen on that idea. Close combat seems to eliminate all the cool positioning stuff from warhammer.

I love heavy bolters and plasma guns. I don't really like campy long range or 100% melee. Cool HQs are a plus but whenever I mention them my mate just talks about markers or whatever they are. Apparently you just just single target a dude in a squad and fire all shots at him or something. Again I have no idea how much of this is miss information. I dont have the rule book to check out what they do. Necrons apparently I need lots of heavy weaponry and power weapons for close combat.

If you lot can think of any list that would be all right between those too and kind of alright for other teams that would be fantastic. Like I dont even know where to start. How many troops and HQ should I pick? I guess it depends. Sorry for all the questions! Its just scary to screw up when squads cost 65$ over here :p


Ok its 4 30 in the morning. Ill get back to you all tomorrow. Just had to drop down a response to let you all know I really appreciate all the help!

*EDIT*Oops neferhet posted before I did. Ill check out that build when I wake up :) Thanks a bunch!
 

·
Entropy Fetishist
Joined
·
4,249 Posts
All right, let's have a look - Mind you the guy you really need to talk to is @Mossy Toes as he's the big cahuna around here in regards to tactics.
Awww, shucks.

Well, let's look what Necrons, Tau and Astra Militarum (still have something of a sour taste in my mouth when typing out the new name of Guard, but I figure it's here to stay, so I'll move with the times) have to offer:

Tau - 2+ armored T6 monstrous creatures, some T4 3+ armored multi-wound jump infantry, some medium to light armored skimmers... and some 4+ armored infantry who are awful in close combat but hard to get close to without going "poof!" Some not-so-good flyers.

Necrons - Nigh unkillable infantry, with 4+ armor and 4+ (rerolling 1s) Resurrection Protocols... who have Gauss which will auto-glance or auto-wound basically anything in the game on 6s. Nigh unkillable fast Wraiths with T5 and 3+ invuln saves...who dish out tons of S6 attacks. Nigh unkillable AV13 all-around vehicles (that once you pen, them, go down to AV11). Some solid flyers.

Astra Militarum - lots of squishy light infantry that can throw out some serious dakka, but aren't very mobile. Potential for lots of light tanks (that can make those infantry mobile). Can field a hefty contingent of heavy tanks. Some pretty solid flyers.

Two relevant observations here: enemy troops are generally shooting in the 24" to 30" range, with rapid fire weapons, meaning the 12-15" area (after the enemy moves 6") is going to be painful to close the distance on. All three of these armies are pretty heavily ranged-focused, though Necrons can up the best fight in combat--them being damn near unkillable, plus having Wraiths.

As I see it, then, you have 2 choices. 1) commit hard to getting through that shooting danger zone and into close combat right off the bat: if basically your entire army hasn't assaulted in by T2, you're not playing it right. 2) stay back out of range of the enemy troops entirely and try to win the long range shooting battle.

Now, normally I wouldn't advise trying to beat 3 shooting armies at their own game with CSM, who are a decidedly assault-leaning army... but there are some mitigating circumstances. CSM have a few units who have decidedly longer range than that 24-30" bubble that your opponents' lasguns, gauss, and pulse rifles will have. Forgefiends, for instance, coughing up some solid S8 shooting, whether in plasma blast or sold dakka form. Like a squad of 5 Noise Marines with a Blastmaster (yay for the FAQ allowing a blastmaster in a squad of 5 NMs, rather than needing at least 10 to buy the first!) in a Rhino with a havoc launcher: 2 Objective Secured units there, throwing out small blasts ranged 48" and 36" for some nice infantry clearing. Similarly, a Heldrake with a Baleflamer is mostly immune to such groundling nonsense, so can breath its hellfire with relative impunity... while vector-striking enemy flyers for daring to cloud its skies.

You should probably have some sort of AA, too, since Crons and Astra have some pretty solid flyers. That's... hard, in CSM lists, honestly. If you can get the Prescience psychic power (whether by taking the CSM Crimson Slaughter codex supplement for the relic that lets a Sorcerer cast Divination powers or allying in some Tzeentchi daemon psykers) a Forgefiend with HACs can snap fire with rerolls to hit and deal some real damage to flyers.

How else to be able to melt AV13 Necron skimmers and 2+ save Riptides? Havocs with lascannons are a firm favorite, from my end. Reach out and touch your foe. Biker squads with 2 meltas can be darting assassin units to take out any tank coming too close to your lines.


If you want to go the melee route rather than build the pretty static, defensive, "outrange your opponent" list... well, Maulerfiends are nice. I think the lasher tendrils tying up Wraiths and reducing how many attacks they get are worth the risk of getting Gauss-glanced to death--do try to stay out of Gauss fire range if possible, though. Bikers are great; Spawn are fun. Either can be joined by a Lord on a Juggernaut or bike who is taking names and thumping fools. Rhinos with dirge casters (that, say, have 5 csm with a melta in each) are a good way to deny Tau "Supporting Fire" Overwatch... provided that the Rhinos live long enough to get within 6" of Tau units, so you need enough higher-threat armor targets (like, say, maulerfiends) to soak up enemy fire that they'll survive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Wow this is awesome info! So I guess chaos would maybe be a bit boring if I went heavy ranged. They dont appear to have that many units to fill that roll. I could be wrong but I guess if I wanted to go range it would be better to go Eldar or something.

So if I were to go with melee what should my list look like? Should I drop all ranged ? Or should I still have some ranged units hidden in there?

I was thinking of going with this kinda stuff (looking from above)

2 Maulerfiends to run straight at the enemy.

6 bikers? Maybe? Maybe 8? Im not really sure (all with meltas)

I guess I have to go with some kind of jump pack so like 15-20 raptor?

Apparently spawns are pretty good too with MoN

And some amount of cultists to take objectives if need be.

Maybe a cheeky helldrake tacked on

I feel like this armys missing some demon god zaz but if its what works I guess I could go with it. Would noise marines fit into this bunch or would they just be a waste? I really wish they would update havoc's models. They look so old. Btw Whip arm man and Huron Blackheart look pretty cool? Could I run them with anything or would they be a waste of points?

So if I were to go with a close quarters dominate CC kinda army what should my build look like?

Btw neferhet those lists looked hilarious though I feel its missing a bit of chaos demon flare. Though by the looks of it most armys I see dont seem to run cool demon squads like noise marines : < Are they kinda poos competitively or something?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
So if I were to go with melee what should my list look like? Should I drop all ranged ? Or should I still have some ranged units hidden in there?

I was thinking of going with this kinda stuff (looking from above)

2 Maulerfiends to run straight at the enemy.

6 bikers? Maybe? Maybe 8? Im not really sure (all with meltas)

I guess I have to go with some kind of jump pack so like 15-20 raptor?

Apparently spawns are pretty good too with MoN

And some amount of cultists to take objectives if need be.

Maybe a cheeky helldrake tacked on
To be honest, Wh40k is a game about shooting and certain armies (eldar, necron, tau) are just plain better than others. With this in mind you have to capitalize on CSM strenght: melee and elite units. I'd say that even a melee oriented army should have some sharp shooters to silence enemy shooting. also, forget about raptors, unless you want them for fluff and rule of cool. bikes are better...

Though by the looks of it most armys I see dont seem to run cool demon squads like noise marines : < Are they kinda poos competitively or something?
they are very good. You could change your list as follows.

Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption
(170)

7 Khorne bikers
power maul
2 meltaguns
(199)

5 nurgle spawns
5 nurgle spawns
(360)

5 Noise marines
blastmaster

5 Noise marines
blastmaster
(250)

10 cultists
10 cultists
(100)

2 Maulerfineds
1 Forgefiend
(402)

This list mixes shooting and melee: most notably, melee units are fast and hard hitting, mostly suited to munch single monsters or squishy infantry, while shooting units have a nice rule called Pinning that will silence enemy shooters, saving your own assaulters better than any cover save!

At 1500 i think that daemonic allies are out of question, unless you drop noise marines and forgefiends and go for an all out assault, with Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut, 10 hounds of khorne and 20 daemonettes...but i don't like this, maybe better to add a winged nurgle daemon prince, 10 hounds of khorne and 10 plaguebearers for objective camping.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Wow thanks heaps again neferhet. BTW I meant noise marines , khorne bersekers , plague bearers as demon units. Not actually demons. My bad for not clearing that up!

So is Khorne just straight up better for melee over Slannesh? Though seeing this army is so mixed I could probably just go with whatever colour scheme I feel like haha. I really like Slannesh but I can make something work I think!

Alright iv noted all of this down. Im thinking of making my nurgle spawns from the new nurgle blightkings. Do you thing that will be ok? Like legal to play with.

Also for the first few months I think we will just be playing 1000 point battles. How should my army look. What units here can I chop to make it fit that bracket? Also any melee chaos tactic threads that you can suggest I check out? Iv never played melee before and im sure its not as simple as just moving my army forward until they hit melee haha. Love that you kept all the mauler/forge fiends in there. Love those beast :p

Oh right one last thing. Will any of this even be able to scrape Necrons?

Also its only 1 blast master per 10 noise marines sadly : <
 

·
Entropy Fetishist
Joined
·
4,249 Posts
Also its only 1 blast master per 10 noise marines sadly : <
Not if you look at the official FAQs and rules errata on the GW website! There they 'interpret' the wording as "one Blastmaster in a minimum size squad and a second only when you have 10 noise marines." Which I really don't mind!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
BTW I meant noise marines , khorne bersekers , plague bearers as demon units. Not actually demons.
oh, i see, well, they are all funny and useful units (beside zerkers, they are a design fail, imo)
So is Khorne just straight up better for melee over Slannesh
more attacks are better than a plain +1 Init especially due to your meta...with I4 you attack before almost everything in your friends armies...if only slaanesh was Rending..sigh...:cray:
Im thinking of making my nurgle spawns from the new nurgle blightkings. Do you thing that will be ok? Like legal to play with.
the blightkings are bigger than spawns, so they are modeled for disadvantage :) of course you can, where they smaller, someone might have grumbled
Also for the first few months I think we will just be playing 1000 point battles. How should my army look. What units here can I chop to make it fit that bracket? Also any melee chaos tactic threads that you can suggest I check out? Iv never played melee before and im sure its not as simple as just moving my army forward until they hit melee haha. Love that you kept all the mauler/forge fiends in there. Love those beast
well, i suggest you to hit your head on the learning curve wall and play with list building a bit. nothing teaches like a mistake ;) , a list suitable for my taste is the following, almost pure melee:

Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, axe of blind fury, sigil of corruption

7 Khorne bikers
power maul
2 meltaguns
(369)

5 nurgle spawns
5 nurgle spawns
(360)

1 Forgefiend
10 cultists
10 cultists
(275)

note that units are grouped in "working teams" and forgefiend is your AA. I tried to minimize mech presence since i feel that at 1000 pts you either mech heavy or you don't. Forgefiend is a fluffy leftover ;)

About melee tactica...mmh, i might have to summon Our Great Master and Saviour @Mossy Toes ! I SUMMON THEE!! YA' MOSSY F'TAGHN!
Also, i suggest you to check google not just for CSM tactics but for general melee tactics, movement and deployment tactics. Whats good for Eldar or Daemons is good for us. Maybe try and watch all the batreps from https://www.facebook.com/SkaredCast where he goes discussing the tactical corner. great player, dangerous and cunning. What's good for DE, is good for you.

There are lots of sneaky tactics such as refused flank, the "sling chrge" manouvre, pivoting vehicles to gain inches and such...just search the net, there are too much websites to even start linking :p

Oh right one last thing. Will any of this even be able to scrape Necrons?

Also its only 1 blast master per 10 noise marines sadly : <
The previous list have bikers and lord + noise marines that can reliably hurt necrons. Forgefiend can be lucky in forcing armour save ( i can see it useful vs Wraiths) and maulerfiends are better sent vs vehicles, steering large from big units, unless used in tandem with spawns.
The blastmaster shitty wording was fixed to allow one each 5 models
 

·
Entropy Fetishist
Joined
·
4,249 Posts
The previous list have bikers and lord + noise marines that can reliably hurt necrons. Forgefiend can be lucky in forcing armour save ( i can see it useful vs Wraiths) and maulerfiends are better sent vs vehicles, steering large from big units, unless used in tandem with spawns.
Maulerfiend should probably take Lasher Tendrils, to drag those Wraiths down to 1 attack each. While IDng the T5 buggers with S10 basic attacks. Even if they do auto-pen you on 6s, with Rending and S6--worth dragging them down to 1/3 of operational capacity, I think. More worth it than what most of the time boils down to 1 free melta hit, as nice as that is... S10 may well already be messing up vehicles.

That's a decent most recent example list, neferhet, but I'd rather have meltabombs on the Lord and biker champ than that power maul, and would probably take a Maulerfiend rather than a Forgefiend--save on points, and at 1k points... well, you can afford to commit all in one direction rather than try to anticipate all comers. Even if it adds a forward vehicle for enemy melta, Gauss, etc. Maybe even go 2 Maulers, dropping a Nurgle Spawn squad for a minimum point melta-biker squad. Or instead of a biker squad, drop a Cultist squad and take 5 CSM with a melta and meltabombs in a Rhino, for some fairly mobile Objective Secured.

The deployment phase and movement phase are incredibly vital in this game, all the more in Maelstrom missions where getting to specific objective markers fast is important. Why so? Because unlike Psychic, Shooting and Assault, they don't involve virtually any dice rolling: they are entirely under your control. As tempting as it is to just point your units at the nearest enemies and unleash them like an arrow, it's important to consider the mission, what sort of cover and blocked enemy lines of sight (even after their movement) you can line up for yourself, how enemy force dispositions favor your own array of units...

The "refused flank" neferhet mentions is a great example of this, especially against a static enemy force. If you can roll up their flank while most of their army is poorly positioned to react, you've basically got it made. If the enemy have split their forces across their deployment zone and have relatively few reserves... well, that's your cue to overwhelm one side with targets and leave the other side nothing to go for. Try to anticipate enemy movement with bait and targets; try to line up your anti-tank with their tanks and anti-infantry with their infantry, and so on... and never forget to play the mission, not your opponent. Adaptivity, mobility, keeping your opponent wrong-footed and tripping over their own forces...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
while you can run both CSM and deamons as a Mono god force, both codex are stronger if you mix the various gods around.

not as fluffy though

or visually cool
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sweet thanks heaps you lot! Ill be ordering all my stuff tomorrow! Ouch my wallet hurts just thinking about the cost. Thanks for the links too Neferhet! Ill get onto looking up all that tomorrow since im doing not much all day. Still busy re reading through all the rules. Seems I having to really study up since im seeing made up rules coming out of friends already :p

Im buying 9 bikes for now so I can play around with the numbers to see how it all works. 2 forge/maul fiends Those nurge dudes for spawns I mentioned before x10 . 10 noise marines just to chuck in and out of the force to play around with how they work. Also picking up that khorne lord on a juggernaut. Oh and a sorc to play around with how those mechanics work. Ill pick up the extra maul fiends and CSMs with rhino when I get a bit of extra cash. This force should keep me busy for the next few weeks at least :p

Looks like ill need to move onto painting next.. Yesh that a whole other pot of learning. Theres also that ground stuff you have to stick on too... man.. I guess I should probably ask for what paints I need and other advice in another forum section though.

Thanks again for all the help guys! Guess I will next see you in the tactics section. Where I will come crying about how I keep getting wrecked by everyone and need some advice :p Ill chuck up a pic of the army once its fully complete. You have all been so helpful!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
Ill chuck up a pic of the army once its fully complete
Counting on that.
Also, curious about the finished list!
Glad to be of help
GLORY TO CHAOS!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rustychops

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So I just realised one of our players is space marines... With lots of terminators. Oh lawd.

Not sure how im going to crack that bunch. Fast attack aint to useful against 10 terminators. Should I pick up a chunk of units to swap out when fighting him? Like swap out the spawns for somthing a bit more rangey or less squishy.
 

·
Warsmith
Joined
·
1,190 Posts
Not sure how im going to crack that bunch. Fast attack aint to useful against 10 terminators. Should I pick up a chunk of units to swap out when fighting him? Like swap out the spawns for somthing a bit more rangey or less squishy.
If you can kill necrons then you can bring down 10 terminators. Its just about making him roll alot of dice, 1's will appear and each one will be a dead terminator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Currently have lots of meltas and melta bombs if you look at the above list

The final list was



The CSMS have a Rhino and 2 Meltas. Forgot to do the drop down on it. The second bike squad also has melta bombs on the commander.
 
1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Top