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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, so im playing my new Necron friend who just got his C'tan shard. It has the rule "lord of fire". Which states,

"All flamer weapons (as well as heat rays, burnas, skorchas, inferno cannons and any weapon described as using 'flame' or 'fire' as its effect or in its special rules) and weapons with melta type fired within 12" of the Ctan shard have a chance of exploding. Roll a D6 each time such a weapon is fired within range. On a roll of 1, the weapon detonates. If carried by a non-vehicle model, the model is removed from play as a casualty. If mounted on a vehicle, it counts as a weapon destroyed result. In either case, the shot(s) are lost.

My friend beleives tooth and nail that "in either case, the shot(s) are lost." Means that whether on a roll of one, on a roll of 2+ the shots are still lost. This meaning Lord of Fire makes him immune to fire within 12". Like an Avatar. Cant shoot at him. Being fire heavy, and him being a brand new Ctan user, you can see how this is becoming an issue. He wants concrete evidence before he'll admit that he can take fire damage. Claiming the shard deflects all fire within 12".

Can somebody help me out here? Vet Necron player?
 

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How does your mate read "if you're a non-vehicle model this happens and if you're a vehicle then this happens" and then construe "in either case" to apply to pass/fail of the roll and not vehicle/non-vehicle ?

The shots are only lost on a one, tell him to read the bloody rule if he wants concrete evidence.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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The example doesn't give two options for the rolls: it doesn't say "on a 1, do this, and on a 2+, do that." Therefore there is no "either" option that it could be referring to with regards to the roll; the "either" option must, necessarily, refer to whether it is a vehicle or a non-vehicle model.

Basically, you're in the right of it here.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
How does your mate read "if you're a non-vehicle model this happens and if you're a vehicle then this happens" and then construe "in either case" to apply to pass/fail of the roll and not vehicle/non-vehicle ?

The shots are only lost on a one, tell him to read the bloody rule if he wants concrete evidence.
Oh trust me. Ive read it to him countless times. Aloud. He wants to call gameworks. Like 10 points gives him fire immunity and a 1in 6 chance of instant death no saves. Im really at a loss. Hes just reading it all in a context I cant fathom.

Anyone else wanna back me up?
 

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The "in either case, the shot(s) are lost" is refereing to the case of it being a vehicle or non-vehicle model. It is not meaning if either a 1 or a 2+ is rolled. Rolling a 2+ isn't even mentioned. The weapons just have a chance of exploding. Nowhere does it say the C'Tan is immune. That would make one of the 2 cheapest powers very overpowered. And that's why nobody who runs C'Tan uses it. It is a very situational, short range power. But here's a real stumper, assuming he is right. What happens if you use a Multi-melta from 13+ inches away to attack his C'Tan? The roll is not triggered by Lord of Fire. The weapon can't explode but the shot just disappears once it hits the 12" mark? What about a shot outside the 12" firing at another target outside the 12" but travels through the 12" bubble?
 

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Can I just say that I wish that, that is how it worked. It would be awesome!
 

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Am I right in thinking it works like plasma but for flame weapons.
If so refer him to how plasma works or ring gw and they will tell him.
 

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Also am I the only one that thinks it should also effect psychic powers from the Pyrokinesis school?
 

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It's the fire they are manipulating, not the warp.
 

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It's the fire they are manipulating, not the warp.
No, it really is warp energy. It's not real fire - if a Librarian fires bolts of fire shaped as screaming double-headed eagles at you and you start to burn, a fire extinguisher doesn't save you. On the other hand, wolf fur, however flammable, will, because it's a psychic attack.

Midnight
 

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The example doesn't give two options for the rolls: it doesn't say "on a 1, do this, and on a 2+, do that." Therefore there is no "either" option that it could be referring to with regards to the roll; the "either" option must, necessarily, refer to whether it is a vehicle or a non-vehicle model.

Basically, you're in the right of it here.
OP, just read the rule to him like Mossy has done. If you don't approach it properly there's not much more we can do to help you. Useful comments have explained how the rule is supposed to be read, but if you can't take this knowledge and present it in such a manner that your friend accepts, I'm afraid you're stuck. There isn't some magic pot of gold anyone can pull out, unless there's been an FAQ. Your friend is wrong, we've explained why, now go get him!
 

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It also says in the rule anything that is described as using fire, so yeah the entire Pyromancy lore (if you can aggree on it being a weapon). But you are right, the shots are only lost on a 1. Everything after 'On a roll of a one the weapon detonates.' is refferring to what detonate does - is there not some psychic power or weapon which referrs to detonation too? Either way just look at gets hot! but you just don't get a save from it
 

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Rattlehead
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It also says in the rule anything that is described as using fire, so yeah the entire Pyromancy lore (if you can aggree on it being a weapon). But you are right, the shots are only lost on a 1. Everything after 'On a roll of a one the weapon detonates.' is refferring to what detonate does - is there not some psychic power or weapon which referrs to detonation too? Either way just look at gets hot! but you just don't get a save from it
But 'anything that uses fire' requires a level of sense, and what is essentially Force Lightning with face paint is not 'fire'. Can you use Force Lightning to charge a car battery? No.

If you played it that I way I would claim that Tesla Weapons overcharged my Deathwing a la Thor vs Iron Man.

Midnight
 

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It's hard to judge stuff on fluff- like does pulse use plasma? Yes and no
Yes because it's a plasma pulse
No because it's not the actual plasma that hits, rather a pressure wave generated by the plasma

Is pyromancy fire? Yes and no
Yes because it's warp fire- it looks like fire and proberly burns you, but its the magic that burns you- not heat so no
 

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Necron Codex page 41
Lord of Fire - This C'tan Shard is a creature of living flame, able to command the fires wielded by enemy.

BRB page 421
Pyromancy - A pyromancer is a master of fire and flame, a psyker who is able to create searing infernos out of thin air. Pyromancy is one of the most spectacular and destructive forms of psychic ability, and those who face a pyromancer in the combat are often reduced to nought but a pile of charred bones.

Flame Breath - A torrent of psychic flames pour forth from the psyker's eyes and mouth, engulfing the target.

Fiery Form - Bullets and Shells pass straight through the pyromancer as he transforms into an incandecent being of living Warpfire, striking out at his foes and setting their souls ablaze.

Fire Shield - With a sweep of his arms the psyker throws up a towering wall of flames to protect his allies.

Inferno - With an impatient gesture, the psyker sets the air itself aflame, creating a whirling pillar of fire to sweep through the ranks of his enemies.

Spontaneous Combustion - Focusing his anger, the pyromancer can melt or incinerate his foe in a heartbeat. Yet when his rage boils over, the unfortunate victim's body explodes in a blast of ash and roaring flame. Who can say how many will fall victim to his wrath before it is sated?

Sunburst - The psyker sings a wild song whose notes were old when the universe was young, As he does so, an incandescent aura appears about him, growing ever brighter and hotter with every refrain. Only when the song is ended does the aura explode, discharging its pent-up fury in a blinding, supernoval flash.

Molten Beam - The pyromancer claps his hands together and turns them outward towards the foe. As he does so, a white-hot beam of blazing energy bursts from his palms. It melts amour to slag and vaporizes flesh, leaving only ghastly shadows in its wake.

Those all sound like fire to me. Magic is Energy. Warp energy is.. well Energy. Fire is also Energy. Heat fire flame. These are what a "Lord of Fire" controls. All of these powers produce these energies, the C'tan being able to control them doesn't seem like a far stretch.

If you played it that I way I would claim that Tesla Weapons overcharged my Deathwing a la Thor vs Iron Man.
1) Thor's Lightning hit Iron Man right in his exposed power cell. It also did cause damage to his suit.
2) Armor made by the Imperium of man don't have exposed power cells on the front like Iron Man.
3) Iron Man getting Overcharged didn't make him anymore powerful. It pretty much giving him a bigger gas tank.
4) There aren't any rules to support your suits having "bigger gas tanks" as you have unlimited ammo and power for shields and what not.
 

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The rule says a weapon 'described as using fire in it's effect' (as well as flamers and meltas), so yes that is how it works if it is described as using fire. What I'm getting at is does a witchfire power count as a weapon for the purposes of this?
 

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Rattlehead
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'A corrupt Chaos worshipper might conjure multi-hued conflagrations of living Warpfire'.

Flame Breath - A torrent of psychic flames pour forth from the psyker's eyes and mouth, engulfing the target.

Fiery Form - Bullets and Shells pass straight through the pyromancer as he transforms into an incandecent being of living Warpfire, striking out at his foes and setting their souls ablaze.

It's Warp energy, something that the C'tan specifically don't have methods of dealing with.

Midnight
 
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