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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all,
This is my first post here on HO forums, so please don't hate :biggrin:.

I've been reading alot about your opinions on wether Jonson was traitor or not, and I must disagree with serveral people here.

Firstly, the nature and reason of his percieved betrayal :

In my OPINION ( pleae note the emphasis that it's my opnion, not fact), Lionel Jonson was completely loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor, but the real split happened INSIDE the Legion, not outside it.

Lionel Jonson was a primarch, so when he lived alone in the forests of Caliban, he was the first to learn about the secret of the planet : that it was tainted to the core by Chaos. He also realized the true nature of the beasts of Caliban, and also of the watchers. Living alone amongst chaos-infested forests would surely make anyone paranoid, and as a result, the Lion kept his secrets to himself.

He grew up beside Luther, and was able to make out the taint of chaos in his mentor which showed in the form of Luther's jealousy towards him and his ambiton. The assassinaton attempt on the Emperor, the one man who he completely trusted didnt help cure his paranoia either.

Now when he sent Luther back to Caliban, there are 2 possible reasons IMO :

no.1 : he realized that Luther was getting more & more jealous every day, so simply sent him back to keep a distance from him, while sending back those who he felt might betray him along with Luther. While the reserves were stationed at Calban, they would train and recruit more marines and equipment and Luther remains occupied with mundane paperwork etc. Most logical reason for this being that Lion's psychic powers were similar to that of Sanguinius and Kurze, so he foresaw Horus' betrayal and wanted to have a large reserve force ready to strike at Horus when needed.

And all the while keeping his 2 most trusted agents, Cipher, who was loyal to him and not Luther, to keep the Lupus Knights' records safe and act as a witness and informant to the Emperor about the events on Caliban incase the shit hit the fan. And sending Zahariel, who he believed was completely loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, to keep an eye on Luther and ensure the CHaos entity there canot be controlled by him.

2nd scenario : Lion learns about the atomic bomb incident aboard his ship, is enraged by Luther's near-betrayal, and decides to kill Luthor. Now, simply walking up to Luthr & blowing his head off with a Bolter won't work. So you send him down to Caliban for years at a stretch, with those who would remain faithful to him, and let him amass an army. Let him discover the Chaos daemon on the planet under the watchful eyes of Zahariel and Cipher.

When the heresy is over, return to Caliban where if all went according to plan, Luther has turned traitor, and make war against luther and kill him. When the Emperor asks for an explanation, simply say, " I sent him there to train reserves, but he turns traitor and starts conducting Chaos sorcery. I have Zahariel and Cipher, my 2 trusted agents here as witness to his crimes. When I went back to Caliban to deploy my reserves, Luther and the entire planet attacked me, so I had to kill them all & destroy the planet to wipe the taint off it that Luther created. " That would be explanation enough to do away with a potential traitor in Luther and avoid being labelled traitor due to the faulty nature of the planet he was found on.

I myself believe that selling the siege weapons to perturabo was a huge mistake, just an accident that would make Lion say " oh shit, WTF was I thinking by giving him the cannons".

Anyways, sorry for the long post :hang1:, I had to make my opinions clear to you guys somehow lol.

I will give my opinions on Boreas and Astelan in my next post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Now about Boreas and Astelan.

IMO Astelan never meant to lie. He did not speak one word of lies, simply because he himself was mislead by Luther to such an extent that he himself believed that he was telling the truth and always followed the right path.

And he was never able to "convert" Boreas. Boreas at the end of Angels Of Darkness, in his message to the chapter commanders, simply says that he's had enough of only hunting the fallen all the time and not keeping humanity's well-being as priority no.1.

For example, The Angels of Retribution abandoned the defense of Gatlinghive in order to go capture a Fallen Angel. This is the kind of error that Boreas is talking about.

The Dark angels in M41 have become so obsessed with hunting down the fallen that they sometimes forget the very reason why they were created, to help humanity when it needs help, not abandon them at the time of need to run after traitors. That is exactly why Boreas sacrfices himself, his squad, the recruits and the chapter gene-seed in order to stop the virus from spreading and killing the population of Piscina V.

That was something you would expect from Uriel Ventris/Ultramarines or the Salamanders, not a Dark Angel, right ? Thats exactly what I'm trying to convey. Boreas was simply stating that the DA chapter started behaving selfishly and weren't keeping the wellfare and safety of humanity in mind, and were busy pursuing their former traitors when they could have been doing much better for the imperium instead.

Whew, well thats it for my opinons on the topic, sorry again for the long posts heh :biggrin:
 

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2nd scenario : Lion learns about the atomic bomb incident aboard his ship, is enraged by Luther's near-betrayal, and decides to kill Luthor. Now, simply walking up to Luthr & blowing his head off with a Bolter won't work. So you send him down to Caliban for years at a stretch, with those who would remain faithful to him, and let him amass an army. Let him discover the Chaos daemon on the planet under the watchful eyes of Zahariel and Cipher.

When the heresy is over, return to Caliban where if all went according to plan, Luther has turned traitor, and make war against luther and kill him. When the Emperor asks for an explanation, simply say, " I sent him there to train reserves, but he turns traitor and starts conducting Chaos sorcery. I have Zahariel and Cipher, my 2 trusted agents here as witness to his crimes. When I went back to Caliban to deploy my reserves, Luther and the entire planet attacked me, so I had to kill them all & destroy the planet to wipe the taint off it that Luther created. " That would be explanation enough to do away with a potential traitor in Luther and avoid being labelled traitor due to the faulty nature of the planet he was found on.
Hmm I don't really get your reasoning here. Why couldn't Lion simply walk up to Luther and shoot him? He had evidence for attempted Treason and Zaharial as witness to the fact. And even if he didn't nobody apart from a few Calibanite dissidents are going to going really listen. Lion's a Primarch, his legion has one of the most impressive victory tallies in the history of the Crusade (still not sure for definate where they come in a ranking but I suspect they're at least number 3) Luther at the end of the day was just a single enhanced human who from the view of most rode around on Lion's Coat tails.

I suspect the attitude had Lion blown his head off would have been more along the lines of, "Well he might have helped conquer a planet but he couldn't wrap his head around fighting in a theater of war were so many surpassed him, and it drove him mad with jealousy, leading him to attempt to assassinate The Primarch."
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Hmm I don't really get your reasoning here. Why couldn't Lion simply walk up to Luther and shoot him? He had evidence for attempted Treason and Zaharial as witness to the fact. And even if he didn't nobody apart from a few Calibanite dissidents are going to going really listen. Lion's a Primarch, his legion has one of the most impressive victory tallies in the history of the Crusade (still not sure for definate where they come in a ranking but I suspect they're at least number 3) Luther at the end of the day was just a single enhanced human who from the view of most rode around on Lion's Coat tails.

I suspect the attitude had Lion blown his head off would have been more along the lines of, "Well he might have helped conquer a planet but he couldn't wrap his head around fighting in a theater of war were so many surpassed him, and it drove him mad with jealousy, leading him to attempt to assassinate The Primarch."
Well just like the Lion, Luther had alot of support amongst the DAs and also back home on Caliban. The people responsible for the assassination plot against the Emperor may have had Luther's support. People also knew that Luther was Lion's mentor and helped him out on Caliban.

Most important reason for this is Lion's paranoia. Even if no one gave a crap about Luther dying, the Lion may have wanted to be 110 % certain that this issue be handled in the most safe way possible. You also have to keep in mind that the Lion does not want the Emperor to know that he knew about Caliban's being tainted by Chaos all along.

On that note, another theory : no.3 : Emperor commanded Lion to do all this to get rid of the planet Caliban, because the taint of Chaos was too strong. They may have planned this from the moment they met each other. But thats stretching the theory a bit too far lol.

Well, these are just my opinions, of course I could be wrong :biggrin:
 

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Well just like the Lion, Luther had alot of support amongst the DAs and also back home on Caliban. The people responsible for the assassination plot against the Emperor may have had Luther's support. People also knew that Luther was Lion's mentor and helped him out on Caliban.

Most important reason for this is Lion's paranoia. Even if no one gave a crap about Luther dying, the Lion may have wanted to be 110 % certain that this issue be handled in the most safe way possible. You also have to keep in mind that the Lion does not want the Emperor to know that he knew about Caliban's being tainted by Chaos all along.
Hmm it sounds like a leap to me. And I've heard worse theories. But the idea of the Marines holding more loyalty to Luther than the Lion doesn't make sense to me. Luther had more support amongst the former members of The Order, the Terran born Marines (many of whom taught the young Caliban born Marines more than the order did) didn't really care about him and held Loyalty to the Primarch and the Legion second.
 

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The recruits Luther trained could have more loyalty to Luther, seeing as they would never have seen Lion before, and would have been trained by luther for god knows how long.
Also, I'm sure some of the calibanite marines would have allegiances to luther instead of Lion. So it does make sense really.
 

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i kind of like the idea that the lion was merely waiting to see who would win the heresy before choosing a side, OR he was loyal to the emperor merely for his own ambitions rather than for the imperium. He probably figured that horus's rebellion would fail and by siding with empy would secure some kind of position after the dust settled.

Perhaps he intended to side with horus but the heresy ended before he was ready to reveal his allegiance. The dark angels were heading to terra like the ultramarines, but like them didnt arrive until it was practically all over.
 

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The simple fact for me is that in my opinion The Lion being a fence sitter makes for a much better, more interesting story with more variety than him just being another loyal Primarch with a few problems in the camp.
 

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The simple fact for me is that in my opinion The Lion being a fence sitter makes for a much better, more interesting story with more variety than him just being another loyal Primarch with a few problems in the camp.
YYeeehhh but he wasn't.

In Fallen Angels when he learns of the heresy his reaction is more along the lines of, "HA I always knew Horus was a loser! Now I'm gonna kick his ASS!" He's shown to have a genuine hatred of traitors. His one real Hubris is that he honestly believes he would be the better Warmaster and his entire interaction with Perturabo is geared towards that end.

He gives the Siege guns he recovered from Horus to Perturabo for use in the Istvaan campaign being waged to destroy Horus. His entire reason for doing this is so that when Horus has been destroyed Perturabo will support Lion's claim to the title of Warmaster. He wasn't fence sitting he was willing to take Horus out and take his place at the Emperor's side.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The interesting question is :

What is the BIG secret that the DAs are hiding ? There is no way the Lion could ever have told anyone in the DAs that he was going to side with Horus if he won ( if he did ), or that he was a fence-sitter. He did not trust anyone in his legion enough to let them know his true motives.

If the DAs found that he was a fence-sitter or a potential traitor, they would all rebel against him, just like Iacton Qruze and Garviel Loken. And even the M41 DAs would never venerate him ( even the chapter masters ), they would just erase all trace of him and lament their primarch's actions.

But they don't and they still consider him the greatest, so thats a big indicator of his loyalty.

So, what the hell is the big secret all about ? If Lion is loyal, then that means that he must have made a major error/judgement tactically or morally somewhere during the heresy that cost the Imperium and the chapter greatly. Or, the DAs believe that Luther's betrayal should never be known to the Imperium's masses or they would be declared traitor.

Maybe it has something to do with the Emperor and Lion, some conspiracy between them that the DAs believe would not only hurt their chapter, but the entire Imperium and the Emperor himself if it were known.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The Fallen.
Nono, that is the one that is being hidden from the Imperium's masses. The inquisition and other chapters of marines ( including Space Wolves !!! ) know about the fallen.

But there is supposed to be one secret, that only the highest ranking members of the inner circle know about. And one that even US, the PLAYERS and readers of WH40k do not know about. One that would cause insta-damnation for the DAs & their successor chapters and also of the entire Imerium, if it ever got out. There would be nothing mysterious about the DAs if the Players & readers know all their secrets haha.

That's the one I'm talking about ;)
 

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Nono, that is the one that is being hidden from the Imperium's masses. The inquisition and other chapters of marines ( including Space Wolves !!! ) know about the fallen.
No they don't. The Dark Angels have very carefully kept The Fallen a secret from everybody except the Unforgiven chapters founded on their Gene Seed. The Dark Angels have killed Inquisitors and even other Marines who have found out about it.

Read the Space Wolf book Sons of Fenris The Space Wolves have literally no idea why the Dark Angels turn up and attack a planet under their protection. They never do find out either.

Trust me the big secret of the Dark Angels is The Fallen. Nothing else. Even the majority of the Dark Angels don't know about it. They have to be veteran rank or higher to even get the first inkling of the Dark Angels mission. Most think they're just hunting really vile traitors only the Deathwing know the truth.
 

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I'll have to back coder59 up there.
I may be incorrect, but I think certain members of the ravenwing may know about the Fallen. But the inner circle and 1st company know about them.
I think another secret may be about the cells where some fallen, like Luther, are kept. And another secret may be that the Lion is asleep within the rock, not all DA know about that I think.
 

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The Ravenwings main mission is to track down The Fallen, they are dispatched at the slightest hint that could lead to finding one of them, the biggest dark secret with regards to the imperium in general is The Fallen, another big secret is that Luther is kept in stasis in The Rock, refusing to repent ranting that The Lion will return and forgive him and a the secret unknown to ALL the DA is that The Lion is being watched over in the deepest recesses of The Rock whilst he slumbers and recovers from his grievous wounds
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ah ok, thanks for the info there. So the cat's out of the bag then :(

Oh well, I guess the DAs still don't lose any of their mystique then.

I wonder what would happen if Azrael would know abut the Lon, that he's still alive & in the Rock. Would he attack the watchers ?

And what the hell are those little things anyways ? And who's side are they really on ? They are enemies of Chaos, thats certain after eading Descent Of Angels, but nothing more than that is known.

That itself is a big mystery IMO.
 

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Ah ok, thanks for the info there. So the cat's out of the bag then :(

Oh well, I guess the DAs still don't lose any of their mystique then.

I wonder what would happen if Azrael would know abut the Lon, that he's still alive & in the Rock. Would he attack the watchers ?

And what the hell are those little things anyways ? And who's side are they really on ? They are enemies of Chaos, thats certain after eading Descent Of Angels, but nothing more than that is known.

That itself is a big mystery IMO.
I'm betting Azrael would get himself a big drill and start searching.
 

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The interesting question is :

What is the BIG secret that the DAs are hiding ? There is no way the Lion could ever have told anyone in the DAs that he was going to side with Horus if he won ( if he did ), or that he was a fence-sitter. He did not trust anyone in his legion enough to let them know his true motives.

If the DAs found that he was a fence-sitter or a potential traitor, they would all rebel against him, just like Iacton Qruze and Garviel Loken. And even the M41 DAs would never venerate him ( even the chapter masters ), they would just erase all trace of him and lament their primarch's actions.

But they don't and they still consider him the greatest, so thats a big indicator of his loyalty.

So, what the hell is the big secret all about ? If Lion is loyal, then that means that he must have made a major error/judgement tactically or morally somewhere during the heresy that cost the Imperium and the chapter greatly. Or, the DAs believe that Luther's betrayal should never be known to the Imperium's masses or they would be declared traitor.

Maybe it has something to do with the Emperor and Lion, some conspiracy between them that the DAs believe would not only hurt their chapter, but the entire Imperium and the Emperor himself if it were known.
It's not very exciting, but if you ignore all the conspiracy theory stuff and accept the most straightforward story, the big secret is the shame of having a good chunk of your legion including your best friend betraying you and the Imperium.

Which doesn't seem like the biggest deal 10k years on when you consider the number of chapters that have defected since that are successor chapters of the likes of the Ultramarines.
 

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I posted my post above thinking i was responding to the most recent post, but it was just the last post on page 1 .. duhhh, my head hurts

Anyone have any idea on what those little hooded things are anyways ? Are they aliens ? Are they ethereal spirits ? or are they warp based entities manipulating the DAs to serve their own ends ?
I like to think that it is an explanation for where the midgets whose names begin with S went to.

But, popular speculation points towards them being part of the Cabal featured prominantly in Legion.
 
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