[Engelus]

SO I was shooting at this squad of 3 models one shield drone, and 2 crisis suits, all with ap3 or better. I caused 4 wounds.

Now how does the opponent roll saves in this situation. what he did do was roll 4 dice simultaneously and one failed and he removed the shield drone.

My take on it was that he should roll for the shield drone until it dies, then the other members of the squad would be exposed to the rest of the wounds.

 

[angels of fire]

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

 

[Engelus]

No offense, but that doesn't help me.

 

[Someguy]

Shield drones are odd, in that they have the same armour save and toughness as whatever the guy with the controller has. Therefore you just take saves for the whole unit and take any wounds wherever you like.

Sounds like he did it right to me.

 

[Bishop120]

You have to apply wounds to all models untill the "rap around" so to speak.. so first you would allocate every model a wound.. 1 wound to the drone and 1 to each of the crisis suits.. this would leave you with one extra wound that you can apply to the drone again. Now your drone can make 2 Inv saves... roll the saves... if only one fails then he is removed... if both fail then one wound would go to the crisis suits as one - one wound model can not take 2 wounds, but in this instance he can attempt to make 2 saves.

Please see page 76 for rules on how to do this. Step 5 is what applies to you the most. Per the first sentence, second column, top of page 26 though "When a unit is suffers wounding hits, each will affect a diffrent model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model." So unfortunately the drone cannot repeatedly try to make his save for all 4 shots. At best he can make 2 (due to wrap around) and 2 wounds must go to the crisis suits.

 

[Engelus]

so the shield drone does not give the crisis suits a 4+ invulnerable. which is what he claimed it did.

so if enough AP wounds come in, He can choose where the wrap around starts, but he does have to put some on the crisis suits, which do not have an invulnerable. so the crisis suits Have to take some wounds no matter what.

 

[Bishop120]

so the shield drone does not give the crisis suits a 4+ invulnerable. which is what he claimed it did.

so if enough AP wounds come in, He can choose where the wrap around starts, but he does have to put some on the crisis suits, which do not have an invulnerable. so the crisis suits Have to take some wounds no matter what.

In a nut shell yesk:

 

[Someguy]

Yeah but it isn't that simple. You say "AP 3 or better". Well the unit has a 2+ save.

He doesn't need the drones to give the suits an invulnerable, their armour is enough. I'm not sure what unit you were shooting at him with but, since the suits and drones have the same T and armour there is no problem with taking the AP 3 hits on suits and the AP 1/2 hits on drones, assuming you can do that while having no model take more than one hit unitil all the others have taken a hit.

 

[Galahad]

Crisis suits do not (normally) have 2+ saves. Barring soecial equipment, they have 3+ saves like PA

Also note that crisis suits are 2 wound models, and you have to assign all of a model's wounds before moving on, so in the case of 4 wounds against 2 suits and a drone, there is no 'wrap around'

So in this case, you could assign 1 wound to the drone (which gets an invul save) and 2 wounds to one crisis suit (which dies) and 1 to the other.

The drone does not get to make multiple saves unless a whole lot of wounds are scored, and considering these are AP3 weapons, it wouldn't matter anyhow since that many wounds would wipe out the suits and thus kill the drone.

Nor does the drone grant an invul save to anyone. If you want invul saves for your suits buy a shield generator for each one.

So here's how it should have gone.
you score 4 AP3 wounds.

He assigns them to one suit (the one WITHOUT the drone controller if he's smart), the drone, and the last wound to his last suit.

The drone (and only the drone) rolls his invul save. If he makes it, the drone remains, otherwise he is removed with the first suit.

If, for some reason, he chose to assign the two wounds to the suit with the drone controller, then the drone is removed automatically...though since casualties are resolved simultaneously, it would still get to at least soak up one of the wounds.

If the drone IS removed, then the remaining (wounded) suit must start making Last Man Standing rolls. If the remainign suit has the drone controller, and the drone passed its invul save, then the (now reduced) unit makes a morale check for 25% shooting casualties and, assuming they pass, fights on as normal, otherwise they fall back.

Moral of the story: Buy more drones, because just one is kinda useless. If you want invul saves, buy shield generators and, for the love of god, always buy a bonding knife for your battlesuit units. They're small, expensive units and need to be on the field as long as possible.

 

[Bishop120]

Well the only thing is it never states that you delegate wounds around the squad based upon the multiple wound concept. First you have to delegate around the Armor Save concept. Only upon removing wounds/models do you start removing whole models first. Delegate for the purposes of Armor save so that the drone can attempt 2 saves then pull up one model for the 2 wounds which were delegated to each of the suits since you must remove whole models first and cant spread the unsaved wounds around the squad.

This is also where drones come in handy. Lets imagine that during a full round of shooting you only had 1 wound which managed to go unsaved (failed armor save, armor piercing, ignores armor save...). Since you must remove whole models first you would have to remove a drone since you cant "spread the wounds around" on the crisis suits as long as the drone wasnt in the minority as far as its armor save went.

If you were forced to allocate every wound to a models "wounds" then shooting multiple insta death weapons at squads of multi wound models would become far less effective as you would have to take 2 "insta death" wounds on a model where it would only take 1 shot to kill him. So you divide around the squad to ensure every model has an equal chance at death and remove whole models where appropriate

Have I made it clear as mud yet?:laugh:

 

[Someguy]

My bad on the save. I had got it into my head that we were talking about broadsides.

You don't allocate hits on each model equal to the number of wounds it has before moving on. It doesn't say that anywhere. Once everything has been hit once you can start allocating second hits.

The thing about "removing whole models first" causes a load of trouble. If you allocate some hits to suits, and the suits don't save, the suit takes a wound. You certainly don't remove a drone at this point because it is a "whole model". However, if suits end up taking another wound later on, you would take a suit off rather than have each suit wounded once.

To be honest it's not at all clear what is intended here and I think that we're all presenting our interpretations as fact, which is wrong. I'll stop now.

 

[Galahad]

Ok, for the record, we're talking about 4 wounds at AP3, so armor saves are skipped.

Likewise, drone shave the same toughness and armor save anyhow, so that doesn't matter.

In this case you would make one invul save (for the drone) and then apply the remianing 3 wounds to the suits, bearing in mind that you *must* remove whole models, so two wounds must be applied to one of the suits.

The scenario I laid out on page one is, as far as my understanding of the rules goes, the right one for this situation. (That is where four wounds are scored on the unit with AP3 weapons)

It's not really that ambiguous.

 

[QuietEarth]

I skipped over a few posts so I don't know if anyone mentioned this but if you cause more wounds than there are models, you can designate a single model to take a save.

 

[Dartanyun]

They have the same armor and toughness, the difference is the drone gets and invulnerable.
I don’t have the Tau codex but I believe the drone is allowed to take the save at all times.
But that leaves 3 more wounds to allocate.
One will be assigned to each suit and the last to the drone again.
Next you have to make the saves, the drone gets one but the suits don’t.
There are 2 wounds on the suits. And the drone makes 2 saves.
Whole models must be taken were possible, so a suit is dead.
This will leave one suit and possibly one drone.

If the drone is not allowed to take the hits first the suits take a hit each then the drone gets one.
This leaves one hit to wrap around to the suits again.
The drone rolls a save one suit is removed and the last one is left with a wound on it.

 

[Bishop120]

Yeah this is another instance of where GW made some rules but never really thought them all the way through. It was WAY better back when drones had the simple rule of they ALWAYS take the wounds before the suit does.

 

[The Wraithlord]

In the case above, the Drone would take ALL the hits and save with the inv save. Once one of those saves was failed, the remainder would hit the suits. When that happens, you cannot give a single wound to both suits but instead would remove a suit entirely if 2 wounds were caused. This is not a case of mixed armour so you can choose who is going to take the hits first and move on from there, just like normal. It is entirely possible for the drone to make 4 inv saves and prevent any wounds from occuring.

 

[Bishop120]

In the case above, the Drone would take ALL the hits and save with the inv save. Once one of those saves was failed, the remainder would hit the suits. When that happens, you cannot give a single wound to both suits but instead would remove a suit entirely if 2 wounds were caused. This is not a case of mixed armour so you can choose who is going to take the hits first and move on from there, just like normal. It is entirely possible for the drone to make 4 inv saves and prevent any wounds from occuring.

No. Most certainly not!

Per the first sentence, second column, top of page 26 though "When a unit is suffers wounding hits, each will affect a diffrent model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model." So unfortunately the drone cannot repeatedly try to make his save for all 4 shots. At best he can make 2 (due to wrap around) and 2 wounds must go to the crisis suits effectively killing one suit.

 

[Engelus]

yes, the shield drone is a huge benefit when you get one high ap shot coming in, but when there are tons of rounds going off all simultaneously the shield drone can't jump in front of all the shots.

 

[The Wraithlord]

No. Most certainly not!

Per the first sentence, second column, top of page 26 though "When a unit is suffers wounding hits, each will affect a diffrent model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single model." So unfortunately the drone cannot repeatedly try to make his save for all 4 shots. At best he can make 2 (due to wrap around) and 2 wounds must go to the crisis suits effectively killing one suit.

Hmm, you are correct. Did the old drones used to do this then because I have got it stuck in my mind this way for some reason.....

Of course, I don't use drones with my suits and never have so I am not fully enlightened with their rules lol.

 

[Someguy]

I like drones for broadsides, but not crisis suits. the broadsides do often get shot at and the drones are actually better, since they get a 2+ save.