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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently read a comment about using dual force organization charts, which made me look to see if that stipulation still exists at 2,000 points in 7th; turns out it doesn't (or I just really can't find it). It got me thinking about whether you can take two Combined Arms Detachments from the same Faction. I've always been under the impression that every Detachment had to be from separate Factions because of the way Allies work and how certain Codices and Supplements have specific stipulations for how Allies with their parent Codex or allying with themselves (like with Codex: Space Marines). Got me doing some looking:

Pg. 118 states that "there is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-Forged army can include and you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow." Pg. 120 says much the same, adding the stipulation "provided you have sufficient units".

The only restriction for Combined Arms Detachments is that "all units chosen must have the same Faction (or have no faction)".

Which got me to thinking that you can indeed still do a dual FoC list from the same Codex provided you play two Combined Arms Detachments instead of using an Allied Detachment to only add in one extra Troop choice. Bonus. It also got me thinking that you can ally a Codex with itself provided you have a third Detachment and that is your (Combined Arms) Primary Detachment, as the restriction on Allied Detachments states they "must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)".

Do I have this straight? It's an awesome revelation for me, my gaming group is able to push the size of the games we play up to almost 3k and one FoC is hard to work with at that level for my model collection.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
ALLIES are restricted to a different faction (exception: Space Marines of different Chapters, I believe)
Can this can be negated by taking multiple CADs of different Chapter Tactics or does the Allies section of the SM codex stop that? For the purpose of one-stop reading,

A Space Marine detachment chosen from this codex that
has one set of Chapter Tactics may ally with another Space
Marine detachment chosen from this codex that has a
different set of Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines and Raven
Guard, for example). For the purposes of the Allies rules,
these detachments are treated as if they were chosen from
two different codexes and are treated as Battle Brothers.
Do ya think this means you can't take multiple CADs to expand past two sets of Chapter Tactics in your army? Not that this even specifically applies to me, all my SM armies are from different Codices. Just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
you could never take an Allied Detachment of one Marine Chapter vs another
I'm talking about multiple Combined Arms Detachments though, the ones without any fancy restrictions. Lookit here! I checked the FAQ and there's a total rewording of what I quoted from the Codex.

Space Marines can be taken in an Allied Detachment even if your army's Primary Detachment contains units with the Space Marines Faction, provided that they have a different set of Chapter Tactics.
This nullifies the Allied Detachment restriction in this specific example, but leaves Combined Arms Detachments out of it. Seems to me so far it would be legal take:
CAD Imperial fists
CAD White Scars
AD Salamanders
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Perfect! So the way to ally your Codex to itself is by bringing a Combined Arms Detachment from a different Faction and making that your Primary Detachment.

Now I can take my Deathwing CAD with Belial's need to be in the Primary, then max out the killing with a Blood Angel CAD and a Death Company AD. When the hell did I end up with so many Elites and HQ selections?!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
3 HQs and 4 Elites, 6 Troops selections is a tough section to max out for me with all my Tactical marines shifting allegiances to Imperial Fists. Not a list I would deem competitive, but one that looks hella fun anyway.

I've been pouring over the BRB as well, and now that it's been hashed out in this thread I'm pretty confident that this is the way it works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Ah, I see - then RAW, no, you can't bring an Allied Detachment of your codex' supplement because Allied Detachments cannot have the same Faction as your Primary Detachment.
What if you went:

CAD (Primary) Tau
CAD Eldar
AD Iyanden

where you are no longer in violation of the clause that prohibits Allied Detachments from being the same Faction as the Primary Detachment?

Or is there a statement from Iyanden supplement that specifically states something further on the way it can work with the Eldar Codex?
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I guess my thoughts about this stemmed from having two large armies and several smaller allied forces, though to be fair I don't play Tau or Eldar so I am out of my depth talking about them. It struck me as an interesting way of getting multiple Chapter Tactics into one army from the SM codex, but only in larger games.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
and basic SM Troops aren't particularly strong outside of Bikers
I dunno, my buddy's goal is to build an entire Company of SM and he's focused on Troops first. Facing his 90+ Marine army at 2k is retarded for my 'get in close and rip it up' mentality :laugh:

Maybe not the most competitive, but I was surprised at how hard it was to deal with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I'd be interested to know what kind of firepower it puts out - Tacticals are poor, offensively, so presumably there's support of some kind? Difficult to balance the different firepower you need with just MEQ bodies.
3 Devastator squads do a pretty good job of supporting. Not to mention the Special/Heavy Weapon combo in each Tactical squad. It's obscene.
@mayegelt, would it be better if Xabre's line was this?

Simply put, any supplement is now the same faction as the core race. You can always CAD them, but you can never Ally them unless the supplement stipulates differently. With the exception being Marines, because they treat each Chapter as its own faction in terms of using an Allied Detachment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Fair enough, hadn't considered Devastators in truth - I'd definitely want to face that across a field and see if I could deal with it!
The only thing that saved me was my armour in one game. All I had left was a Baal Predator and a Land Raider Redeemer running amok among his lines with nothing that could stop them. I basically used the rest of my army to pick out the things S8+ in suicide gambles and it worked, once that LRR finally made it to his back lines it dropped three slightly less than 10 man squads in one shooting phase thanks to a terrible Ld test and subsequent run off the board combined with some amazing Template placement.

Yes Ntaw, that probably works
Perfect! :drinks:
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 · (Edited)
See, that's NOT what I mean. People are putting words in my mouth, but I really mean what I say.
Didn't mean to step on your toes, many apologies. I figured quoting and adding in text in a different colour was just easier than me typing things out all over when you had put it nice and succinctly there. Also, future Supplements could very well have that stipulation in them and we just don't know that's the next bomb GW's dropping.

Now, I don't know why GW gave the Loyalist Marines the exemption, but they did, and they spelled it out in an FAQ.
The Allies thing from the SM side of this was in their book initially and was FAQ'd to have a more current vernacular involved, none of the Supplements can claim this I don't think. This is because (as I see it) SM are the most popular army and GW wants to enable people to use them as much as possible. I'd like to think it's because the lists you build based off the strengths of each Chapter Tactic do make them different armies in their own right in-game despite all being Muhreenz....but it's probably because GW wants to make money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Figured I would copy/paste this from the Warhammer Fest thread @mayegelt started:

Q3) For the purpose of Combined Arms Detachments / Allied Detachments and such, is the word FACTION that is used just the name of the Book in most cases.
A3) Yes. With the exception of Space Marines, most books like Daemons, CSM, Eldar count as that Faction. However Iyanden classes as Iyanden for faction, Crimson Slaughter classes as Crimson Slaughter, Farsight Enclave counts as Farsight Enclave... All of these would be able to Ally to their parent books so long as the book says they can (so Iyanden cant as it doesn't say they can ally Eldar according to their book). Newer books of course like Waaagh Ghazghkull & Champs of Fenris do not need to ally to the main book so do not have the option to.
 
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