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From what I've read, your 'Combined Arms Detachment' is 1 HQ, 2 Troops, plus all the fixin's.

An 'Allied Detachment' is smaller, 1 HQ, 1 Troops.
Formation Detachments (and other shinies, like a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment), all have their own requirements.

CADs are how you build a double force org, and there are no restrictions. ALLIES are restricted to a different faction (exception: Space Marines of different Chapters, I believe). This forces you to run 2 full CADs, instead of 1.5 with the Allied Formation loophole.

Tau & Farsight together needs 2 CAD. Space Marines and Tau can use 1 CAD and 1 Ally.
 

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Or you can ally where specifically allowed. I.e. Farsight is specifically allowed to ally to Codex:Tau armies. And I think it's the same for different chapters of SM.

Wrong. The rules in FSE are NOT saying that you can use an Allied Detachment (since that rule didn't exist at the time the codex was printed). That rule is stating that FSE and Tau are Battle Brothers, and are treated as such. In 7E, the new 'factions' make this rule moot, because now both are part of the Tau Faction. but never once does it say you can break the BRB rule that states an Allied Deatchment must be a different faction.
@ntaw: Based on what you quoted, I would recant my previous statement and say no, you could never take an Allied Detachment of one Marine Chapter vs another. same as above with Tau: the Allied rules say they can NOT be the same faction. C:SM allows different chapters to be battle brothers, and to treat each chapter as it's own army, but you'd need to CAD both chapters in the same faction.
 

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While valid that the rule didn't exist, I checked the FAQ and no correction was made to this text:

"In adidtion to following the allies matrix for Codex:Tau Empire, Farsight enclaves detachments and codex:Tau empire detachments may ally together as battle brothers" (empasis added)
(I only have the MOBI edition, can't quote you a page)

Since they saw fit to not FAQ this, it tells me they can both use the ALLY formation with each other. As that's the wording they use.



Again, no. The ALLY MATRIX is designed to tell people how two factions react to each other. So the ruling in FSE says that Tau and FSE may ALLY TOGETHER and count as Battle Brothers... because at the time of 6E, the ALLY MATRIX did not show anything regarding Farsight to tell them what their relation was (after all, in Fluff they may NOT be Brothers). The word ALLY in the FAQ is talking about the matrix, because an 'Allied Detachment' specifically says that you can't use the same faction. GW had no reason to FAQ that original rule, because the new BRB Faction rules have incorporated this. Or you could read what I'm about to write to @ntaw and realize that since they did NOT put this in the FAQ for Tau, but did for Marines, it suggests that Marines are the exception, not the rule (and therefore Tau isn't either).

Ntaw... that FAQ is why in my first response I said 'I think Marines can do it'. I don't play Codex Marines so I wasn't keeping up with their rules too much. In your example, that's perfect. Basically the way it boils down is when you choose your detachments, one becomes primary. wherever your Warlord is, really. And I think if you take a CAD, one of those needs to be primary. You can keep throwing in other CADs, and the Allied restrictions are based of the primary FACTION (emphasis there mostly for Creon). In the case of Marines, your example is valid because of the FAQ exclusions.

Heck, you could get away with

Primary CAD: Salamanders
CAD: Tau
Allies: FSE (specifically because it is not the same faction as Marines).
 

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Depending on how many different things you were throwing in, you wouldn't NEED a CAD and AD in that example. Unless you were pushing 3 HQs and/or 7 troops? Otherwise you could just throw the Death Company in your Blood Angel's CAD.

But yes, in theory, you're correct, that's what you could do.

*note that I haven't been talking out of my ass with no BRB in front of me, but I'm about 90% sure that it's all based what what you declare your PCAD.
 

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Ahh this old chestnut again...

The general consensus is that the allies rules are written badly and uses the word "Faction" to frequently to both describe the armies and collective group of armies (such as Forces of the Imperium).
Technically as written if you wanted to you could have a CAD with Space Marine Chapter Master as HQ, Leman Russ tanks as Heavy and Grey Knights as Troops in the same CAD if you read the rules as written. This is because as "Forces of the Imperium" they are all the same Faction.
What stops this one from happening is the Codex's own Force Org Chart. Yes, BRB says that you can have the same FACTION as your primary CAD, but the Codex writes out the Force Org Chart that says you can't have a Leman Russ without the rest of your Force Org, your hQ and Troop requirements. Nothing in the BRB stops that requirement (except unBound).

The other weird one is because of the Space Marines FAQ it says something like
"Space Marines can be taken as an allied detachment even if your army's primary detachment contains units of the space marine faction, provided they use different set of chapter tactics"
And THAT is the most important thing you could have said. Because no other supplement says this, this is the measure against every other standard. Tau and Chaos do NOT have something like this to say they can run an allied detachment.

HOWEVER though I don't have the FSE book, I know that from Crimson Slaughter (CS) & Black Legion (BL) they both say in clear words they treat CSM as Battle Brothers and count themselves as CSM for the purpose of being allied to. Also they may ally with CSM. So in this case you could have CSM Primary with BL Allied Detachment OR Combined Arms Detachment.
This is the same argument as Farsight using different words. Nothing in those rules say you can have an allied detachment. The rules were 6E relics that say they are battle brothers, while the 7E faction rules make that rule obsolete (I've said this already). Farsight says the same thing. It can Ally as Battle Brothers... but these rules came out before an Allied Detachment ever existed, so how can this rule possibly be implying something that wasn't around? Only a specific permission, like the Space Marine FAQ could do so.


TLDR: Just because an army can ally and count as Battle Brothers, does not mean it can break a rule that says 'Allied Detachments can not come from the same faction'.
 

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Well only some books have their own FoC, though the ones in the rule book are different to those ones anyway, and it says these are the ones to use in the BRB unless you want to use one of the unique ones with their own rules a codex has.
Since I don't have my BRB7E in front of me, I can't respond as well as I'd like to. End result: Can you find something in the BRB that says whether a CAD can use multiple armies? The default rules for a CAD apply in most cases, and I believe there are restrictions that say all entries in a CAD must come from the same codex. However, since I can't quote it verbatim, I'll leave that one in the air.

The big weird one that normally throws the spanner at the suggestion by me is as I said with this whole "Factions" thing what appears to much and actually refers to different things in different parts of the rule book. Is that for instance if you have a Imperial Fist Space Marine army, as written if you read 1 way you could not ally with anyone of the same faction (as it says allied detachments must have a different faction to the ones in your primary detachment) would mean that you could not have Grey Knights or Imperial Guard or Space Wolves or whatever because they are the same faction (Armies of the Imperium). But would of course be able to include anything from any of those books in the same Primary Detachment as all of them would be the same faction. The Faction being, Armies of the Imperium, and the only restriction being on a CAD / PD being that all units contains in it must be of the same faction (being Armies of the Imperium).
Actually, what you just wrote there is exactly the point. You CANNOT have a Grey Knight or Guard or Space Wolves or anything else as an Allied Detachment with this system, because they ARE the same Faction. However, you could, for instance, run a Nemesis Strike Force detachment, or an Inquisitorial Detachment, or a Knight Detachment, etc etc. You just can't run an ALLIED Detachment.

Talking about using multiple codices in a singled CAD leads back to what I mentioned at the top of this post, in which I feel that there's a restriction in the CAD saying all entries must be from the same source.
 

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There are a few restrictions on Allied Detachments due to the outdating of 6th edition wording by 7th edition army composition - Iyanden, Waaagh! Ghazghkull and (unconfirmed) Heroes of Fenris cannot ally with their parent Codex. All other Supplements are free to do so. There is a workaround, in that you can still bring a Combined Arms Detachment of Iyanden alongside your Combined Arms Detachment of Eldar.
This is the crux of the debate right here; can you quote anything that would explain why 'All other Supplements are free to do so'? Are we still referring to the rule that says [Supplement] can Ally as Battle Brothers with [Codex]? Because the whole point of this argument was what that rule means. If it's a matter of Codex trumping BRB, don't all of those supplements also state that they count as their parent's codex, forcing the 'Same Faction' rules for Allied Detachments right back into play?
 

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I think the issue with Iyanden is actually handled by the Faction rules. As Iyanden counts as Eldar, they count as the Eldar faction... one of the reasons why you can count them as Battle Brothers on the matrix, but can't take them as an Allied. Iyanden didn't add this rule in their codex, which was an oversight, but the Faction rules remove the need for it... which might explain why you don't need it in the Ork Waaaawhatever (I don't know Orks, sorry).

Simply put, any supplement is now the same faction as the core race. You can always CAD them, but you can never Ally them. With the exception being Marines, because they treat each Chapter as its own faction in terms of using an Allied Detachment.
 

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3 Devastator squads do a pretty good job of supporting. Not to mention the Special/Heavy Weapon combo in each Tactical squad. It's obscene.

@mayegelt, would it be better if Xabre's line was this?
See, that's NOT what I mean. People are putting words in my mouth, but I really mean what I say. CSM and Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter... those were written before 7E. There's no possible way that they could be implying an Allied Detachment if the rule didn't exist before.

What the rules in Farsight and Black Legion and all of them are stating is that you can Battle Brother Farsight with Tau, or Black Legion with CSM. This is because when 6E was written, they didn't exist in the matrix.

The rules that you keep talking about are trying to clarify the Ally Matrix, and not the Allied Formation.

As I've said before, with 7E, Faction rules make it so these stipulations no longer are needed. Now, I don't know why GW gave the Loyalist Marines the exemption, but they did, and they spelled it out in an FAQ. In doing so, they've created precedent; if an army wants to use an Allied Detachment, it must have an FAQ stating they can.
 
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