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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now, my vote goes to the Ultramarines. Know no fear gives them some actual depth, showing that while they do follow order and discipline, they stillare able to think for themselves. (contrary to 40k, IMO) Ventanus is ace, your typical ultramarine i suppose, but something about him made me love him. Guilliman is portrayed perfectly imo, finally given some flesh. While obviously being a tactical genius, he seems the most....human. He realises that the war will come to an end, he is not obsessed with war like the others. He WANTS peace. Now Unremembered Empire shows that guilliman may not be unshakably loyal. Starting a new imperium, breaking the council of nikea, it is interesting to see that he may have alterior motives. I look forward to see where the Ultramarines go from here
 

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Toss up between First Heretic and Prospero Burns. Both titles completely revamped the legions involved and made them infinitely more complex.

Sadly I don't think this thread is going to talk about any books other than the ones by the top 3 authors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Toss up between First Heretic and Prospero Burns. Both titles completely revamped the legions involved and made them infinitely more complex.

Sadly I don't think this thread is going to talk about any books other than the ones by the top 3 authors.
Not going by at specific book, but rather books on a certain legion
 

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I agree that the Ultramarines are portrayed quite well. Makes you realize that Captain Titus wouldn't have any trouble fitting in with the 30K marines.

However my vote has to go for the world eaters. Betrayer and the eight fold path done much to prove that even thought they were always viewed as berserkers they had allot more depth to them.

 

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Bane of Empires
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In my humble opinion, some of the best have been:

White Scars - Scars.
Word Bearers - The First Heretic.
World Eaters - Betrayer.
Alpha Legion - Legion.

Whilst some of the worst have been:

Iron Warriors (Perturabo in particular) - Angel Exterminatus.
Blood Angels - Fear to Tread.
Raven Guard & Alpha Legion - Deliverance Lost.
 

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Everyone keeps raving about Betrayer but I didn't really see the World Eaters develop. They were hampered on day 1 because of the whole butchers nails in terms of character development and Argal Tal was the star of the show I feel.

And similarly with Scars, I don't get the sense that they got the revamp the Wolves and Bearers got.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Everyone keeps raving about Betrayer but I didn't really see the World Eaters develop. They were hampered on day 1 because of the whole butchers nails in terms of character development and Argal Tal was the star of the show I feel.
I wholeheartedly disagree. The World Eaters were given huge development compared to, say, Galaxy in Flames where they were literally portrayed as one-dimensional berserkers. The tragedy of Angron was brought to life. The Legion's simultaneous hatred and adoration of their gene-sire was explored. The transitional changes from the War Hounds to the World Eaters and the lingering elements and honour of the War Hounds was revealed. Khârn was explored in more depth than any previous publication and became a likeable character rather than a likeable berserker. Yes, Argel Tal and the Word Bearers were heavily involved, but that only helped to isolate (and thus explore) the nature of the World Eaters.

What we had of the World Eaters beforehand (such as Galaxy in Flames) paled in comparison to what we were given in Betrayer. Angron's characterisation built upon the foundations laid by After Desh'ea, rightfully making his story and character into a tragedy rather than simply "RAGE".

They were hampered on day 1 because of the whole butchers nails in terms of character development
I don't understand how the Butcher's Nails detracted from their character development?

And similarly with Scars, I don't get the sense that they got the revamp the Wolves and Bearers got.
What did we have on the Scars beforehand? Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars gave us a unique insight into the White Scars; its culture, methods and why they were such an enigma.

Everything you can claim Prospero Burns did for the Wolves, Betrayer and Scars did for the World Eaters and White Scars.
 

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What we had on the White Scars was that they were thought to turn but didn't. That throwaway comment held us over from the original trilogy i think.

In Scars, you get to see how, or why this might have been the case. I quite liked it. It gave tantalising hints, similar to Legion, leading you to want more.

Vengeful Spirit gave some insight into the Sons of Horus that hadn't happened outside of the FW books.

And although it was focused more on Sevatar, Prince of Crows. I'm only sad that we are unlikely to see more of them preheresy other than occasions like Vulkan Lives (I always knew he was a Crackpot).



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The Emperor Protects
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Best
White Scars - Scars
Word Bearers - The First Heretic
World Eaters - Betrayer
Ultramarines - Know No Fear
Space Wolves - Prospero Burns
Thousand Sons - A Thousand Sons
Luna Wolves - Horus Rising
Alpha Legion - Legion

Worst
Iron Warriors - Angel Exterminatus
Word Bearers/Space Wolves - Battle for the Abyss
Blood Angels - Fear to Tread
Raven Guard/Alpha Legion - Deliverance Lost


As for the rest, I've loved what ADB has done with the Lion, Corswain, Curze and Sevetar, but as for the Legions themselves, they've been great (excluding the 'meh' Angels in their first two novels), but nothing really new or stand out. The Salamanders and Iron Hands, are similarly as unchanged and just being genetically portrayed and with far too much emphasis of the Shattered Legions aspect, we get it, Salamanders are compassionate, like fire and are ever hopeful and positive, the Iron Hands were cold anyway, colder now, bitter times ten, with angry thrown in and love machines. Need someone to mix it up.

The Sons of Horus never really went further than what Abnett did in Horus Rising, again just becoming all too generic.

The Death Guard, seemingly are just walking ironic statements
'We are resilient, we drink poisons, nothing lays us low, we hate psykers there's foreshadowing, and then there's these guys.

The Imperial Fists are in desperate need of their own novel from the likes of Abnett, Wraight or ADB, the game changers as I now see them when it comes to the series as a whole and redefining or making Legions stand out. At the moment they just seem like cameos, extras or supporting cast. Give us a book about them and Sigismund!!

Finally the Emperors Children. Who I just don't seem to know what to say about. They're quite easy to dislike for their traits both before and after their corruption, but they're meant to be really. Their portrayal all under McNeill has gone from both not bad and interesting, to horrible and over the top.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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In my humble opinion, some of the best have been:

White Scars - Scars.
Word Bearers - The First Heretic.
World Eaters - Betrayer.
Alpha Legion - Legion.

Whilst some of the worst have been:

Iron Warriors (Perturabo in particular) - Angel Exterminatus.
Blood Angels - Fear to Tread.
Raven Guard & Alpha Legion - Deliverance Lost.
I agree most definitely. Some legions got sacrificed to bad story telling.

This might surprise most, and though I don't think they have a top ten Heresy Novel, I would say the Lion and his First Legion were displayed the best as a legion. I mean, looking at their culture both good and bad, the legion appeals to me. It doesn't hurt that the Lion has a good record either and his legions tactics are top tier for sure.
 

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I look at it slightly differently, in that the best portrayals for me are the ones that change the view I already had of them. That means the UMs, SWs and TS for me.

The Smurfs and Guilliman were given character they never really had before, the SWs were turned from jolly drunken space vikings into grim, vicious warriors willing to do whatever it takes to complete any mission given to them, and up to A Thousand Sons all we'd ever seen of the TS was the automatons that were the Rubricae.

Honourable mention goes to the Word Bearers. It was nice to see how they fell out of a misplaced sense of duty rather than just because they were pissed off bad guys.
 

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Definitely the Salamanders.

Can't beat reading about hammers and lava and anvils and flames and hammers and burning and anvils every paragraph.
 

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For me it's Word Bearers and Iron Warriors.
(First Heretic, Aurelian, Angel Exterminatus)
 

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The Emperors Children have been done very very well in my opinion. Love them or hate them, and I have kinda done both, they have by far the most depth and character to them.

I think people have been basing their judgements on the books legions have appeared in rather than how the legions have been written.

The EC's and the Ultramarines have received the most coverage I think and it's not surprising that the smurfs are close to the top of everyones list, however, I don't feel there has been the same depth of character development as there has been with guys like Lucius, Fabius, Eidelon and others and, because of their 'pursuits' they've also been the legion that has gone through the greatest amount of change from the starting trilogy, through Fulgrim and into Angel Exterminatus where I think they were portrayed superbly as a twisted, perverted legion, the only traitor legion to, imo, really have embraced chaos. I like the fact there has been this huge outrageous progression to an absurd over the top legion, it fits perfectly with manner of their corruption. I really don't like them, but there is a perverse desire to see what characters like Fabius get up to. Have had my fill of Fulgrim though.

The main problem with the Ultramarines is that there is a lot of them and they've not been able to concentrate of particular characters too much, especially when so many have been killed. However, as a legion I think we have been given a very good indication of legion behaviour and mindset. The whole theoretical and practical must surely now be the most established phrase for any legion.

I think the World Eaters were really well done as well, though that was more a really good portrayal of a primark, the best portrayal imo, as Angron wasn't turned against the emperor, he was never for the emperor. I am biased on this because it just so happens that Angrons opinion on the Emperor and the Empire is pretty much exactly my opinion on it and has been since before the heresy books existed.

White Scars - Meh. Don't think they've been done well or poorly. Just very average.

Dark Angels - no real identity with the real big legion issues not being addressed at all and just silly little sub plots that seem unnecessary in telling the story of the heresy - so far.

Iron Warriors - can't remember anything about them, but I do think they did Perturabo well. I do recall them not taking to the Emporers Children which I was pleased about, I didn't want everyone just to full in line and except everything that was going on.

The Thousand sons had I feel two very different portrayals. Their main portrayal was good and gave some depth to the legion, their other portrayal I think was weak, shallow and predictable.

I've not liked the development of the space wolves. They are just too heavily portrayed like Vikings and it just smacks of a lack of imagination to me. Plus there has been too little character development. I actually cant think of any space wolf characters beyond Russ.

Iron Hands. Hmmm. Mixed bag here. Individually they have been portrayed well and I've enjoyed seeing them as the odd survivor here and there joining up with other survivors, however, I do not like this machine over flesh stuff. Interestingly I dislike them just as much as I dislike the emperors children, both because of the path their pursuits of perfection have taken them.

Lunar Wolves were done well. I liked the character development in the trilogy and I am really pleased that Lokien is now a grey knight. However, the Sons of Horus are whiny snivelling turds and that portrayal has wrecked the legion. I really don't want to hear any more about them if they are constantly going to burst in to tears every time horus gets close to danger.

Word Bearers. Individual characters have been done very well though I don't like the portrayal of Lorgar who can topple titans with a fart in the wind and shatters planets when taking a dump. Just stupidly ott. The legion though I think has suffered at the expense of character development. They gone through significant change as well but I couldn't tell you what they are all about beyond thinking their all mini-me's of Erabus.

Salamanders have been giving a good grounding in how they do things, but I also find them boring.

The worst portrayal by far has been the Blood Angels - oh god that was horrible. If I had to use one word to describe the blood angels it would be, camp. Just no no no no no no a thousand times no.

Special mention must go to the Perpetuals. Ole Person has been fantastic. John has been pretty damn decent as well and there is so many places this could all go. I like how they keep popping up to influence events, helps add new twists. However, I was disappointed at the perpetual in Vengeful Spirit (sorry, didn't want to list books but had to be mentioned).
 

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For me it'd have to be either the Thousand Sons, for their role in "A Thousand Sons" or Word Bearers for "The First Heretic".

The Thousand Sons come off as very distinct and different from the other legions due to their psyker powers. The way that they are shunned by their brothers and eventually shackled by the Emperor himself is really fascinating.

Some of this is also present in the case of the Word Bearers.
I think their portrayal in "The First Heretic" does an excellent job of showing the critical flaw that the legion was created with. To me it felt like a tragic but inevitable fall that was impossible to avoid due to the very nature of zealous spiritual thirst of the legion that is embodied by Lorgar himself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The Emperors Children have been done very very well in my opinion. Love them or hate them, and I have kinda done both, they have by far the most depth and character to them.

I think people have been basing their judgements on the books legions have appeared in rather than how the legions have been written.

The EC's and the Ultramarines have received the most coverage I think and it's not surprising that the smurfs are close to the top of everyones list, however, I don't feel there has been the same depth of character development as there has been with guys like Lucius, Fabius, Eidelon and others and, because of their 'pursuits' they've also been the legion that has gone through the greatest amount of change from the starting trilogy, through Fulgrim and into Angel Exterminatus where I think they were portrayed superbly as a twisted, perverted legion, the only traitor legion to, imo, really have embraced chaos. I like the fact there has been this huge outrageous progression to an absurd over the top legion, it fits perfectly with manner of their corruption. I really don't like them, but there is a perverse desire to see what characters like Fabius get up to. Have had my fill of Fulgrim though.

The main problem with the Ultramarines is that there is a lot of them and they've not been able to concentrate of particular characters too much, especially when so many have been killed. However, as a legion I think we have been given a very good indication of legion behaviour and mindset. The whole theoretical and practical must surely now be the most established phrase for any legion.

I think the World Eaters were really well done as well, though that was more a really good portrayal of a primark, the best portrayal imo, as Angron wasn't turned against the emperor, he was never for the emperor. I am biased on this because it just so happens that Angrons opinion on the Emperor and the Empire is pretty much exactly my opinion on it and has been since before the heresy books existed.

White Scars - Meh. Don't think they've been done well or poorly. Just very average.

Dark Angels - no real identity with the real big legion issues not being addressed at all and just silly little sub plots that seem unnecessary in telling the story of the heresy - so far.

Iron Warriors - can't remember anything about them, but I do think they did Perturabo well. I do recall them not taking to the Emporers Children which I was pleased about, I didn't want everyone just to full in line and except everything that was going on.

The Thousand sons had I feel two very different portrayals. Their main portrayal was good and gave some depth to the legion, their other portrayal I think was weak, shallow and predictable.

I've not liked the development of the space wolves. They are just too heavily portrayed like Vikings and it just smacks of a lack of imagination to me. Plus there has been too little character development. I actually cant think of any space wolf characters beyond Russ.

Iron Hands. Hmmm. Mixed bag here. Individually they have been portrayed well and I've enjoyed seeing them as the odd survivor here and there joining up with other survivors, however, I do not like this machine over flesh stuff. Interestingly I dislike them just as much as I dislike the emperors children, both because of the path their pursuits of perfection have taken them.

Lunar Wolves were done well. I liked the character development in the trilogy and I am really pleased that Lokien is now a grey knight. However, the Sons of Horus are whiny snivelling turds and that portrayal has wrecked the legion. I really don't want to hear any more about them if they are constantly going to burst in to tears every time horus gets close to danger.

Word Bearers. Individual characters have been done very well though I don't like the portrayal of Lorgar who can topple titans with a fart in the wind and shatters planets when taking a dump. Just stupidly ott. The legion though I think has suffered at the expense of character development. They gone through significant change as well but I couldn't tell you what they are all about beyond thinking their all mini-me's of Erabus.

Salamanders have been giving a good grounding in how they do things, but I also find them boring.

The worst portrayal by far has been the Blood Angels - oh god that was horrible. If I had to use one word to describe the blood angels it would be, camp. Just no no no no no no a thousand times no.

Special mention must go to the Perpetuals. Ole Person has been fantastic. John has been pretty damn decent as well and there is so many places this could all go. I like how they keep popping up to influence events, helps add new twists. However, I was disappointed at the perpetual in Vengeful Spirit (sorry, didn't want to list books but had to be mentioned).
Oll Perrson has qucikly became my third favourite character in 30/40k lore. I am so happy the brought him back, and i am really liking how he is a perpetual. Him sacraficing his imortality for mankind will be epic. I also agree that Alivia, the perpetual in Vengeful Spirit was very bad.
 

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Hands down the White Scars

Chris Wraight literally had to build the legion from almost scratch. He did so admirably without resorting to Mongol stereotypes (in fact his Scars are distinct from both European stereotypes of Mongols and historical Mongols). The result is a unique, interesting legion with its own distinct flavour
 

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Everyone keeps raving about Betrayer but I didn't really see the World Eaters develop. They were hampered on day 1 because of the whole butchers nails in terms of character development and Argal Tal was the star of the show I feel.

And similarly with Scars, I don't get the sense that they got the revamp the Wolves and Bearers got.
So in the entire reading of the book you never once felt bad for Angron or any of the world eaters?

Throughout the book there's subtle hints of what Angron could have been had the emperor never left him to his fate. If the emperor did the intelligent thing and ordered the world eaters to go down to Nuceria, and support their gene sire and his gladiator army in fighting their oppressors, could have very well lead to him becoming a primarch with a loyalty on the level of Russ Or even higher.

He himself could have fought alongside Angron and earned his respect. Angron for all his flaws cared about honor their fighting pits were an example of that.

Without the nails he could have been an extremely compassionate person who might have been level with vulkan in terms of not causing excess casualties.

Then there's the world eaters themselves, remember that one captain who didn't do his job and protect the ship? The one who the human captain shot in the face? The other world eaters sided with her and basically ensured that it would never happen again.

That's allot more depth than just being a mindless berserker whose only goal is killing anything that's not a world eater.
 
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