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Discussion Starter #1
I'm reading Hammer & Anvil at the moment and came across some info that might help clear things up:

It's stated in the book that Necron ships are running around the galaxy "traveling at near-light speeds." Ok, so they don't have any FTL. Lovely. Also, Dolmen gates are a rare thing and not easily repaired(though they can be, given time. In the book it's been many years since the Sanctuary 101 incident and the thing still isn't fully fixed.) Nothing at all on if more can be created, but since the Necrons go to such lengths to find and fix lost ones I'd assume not. They appear to be the Necron equivalent of STCs in terms of "valuable relics of a lost age" type stuff.

So Necrons essentially move slower than the Tyranids in normal space and have a handful of Dolmen gates that destroy themselves over time just by their function. This essentially means that any Necron fleet that wants to attack somewhere is going to have to do so in such massive numbers so as not to be destroyed when they finally reach something like a heavily-defended world.

Imotekh now knows how big a Black Templar crusade fleet is and would take steps to not lose a second time, making them a lot like Tyranid splinter fleets(though IMO it seems really unlikely that he should have even lost the first time to some Imperium ships.) Also, I still can't seem to figure out if Necrons can actually make more stuff. They can re-purpose already constructed bodies, machines, stuff like that, but if they could make more armies from scratch I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Oh, and on the subject of what the Necrontyr used to look like, the cryptek Ossuar in the book states that human biology is a recursive evolution of their old organic forms and he was curious to know exactly how that happened. Sounds like they looked almost exactly like humans.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It's interesting so far. The book doesn't feel too much like an advertisement for new Necrons. Funny enough the few Necron characters that are introduced feel more alive and fleshed-out than the Sisters do. Probably because the Sororitas are portrayed as essentially female Ultramarines(with the "but they're still human" thing thrown in.) There's a lot of Adeptus Mechanicus stuff as well. It's a good all around read, better than many of the Battles of the Space Marines books.
 

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I`ll have to read this when I get the chance.

I can say that necrons are able to repair and rebuild their own tech. They are also not adverse to developing new tech.

The Dolmen Gates are neither of these, accounting for the difficulty.
 

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I`ll have to read this when I get the chance.

I can say that necrons are able to repair and rebuild their own tech. They are also not adverse to developing new tech.

The Dolmen Gates are neither of these, accounting for the difficulty.
I don't think you can just state this as fact. Those are suppositions, there's no evidence (yet) to back those assertion.

I would agree that they can repair some (all?) of their technology- we see this in the repair of 'wounded' necrons. We can also then assume that given time and resouces they can repair or replicate most, if not all, examples of their technology.

We have no evidence that the Necrons are predisposed to creating new technology though, with no examples of such technology.
 

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Actual FTL is a poor way to try to forge a Galactic empire, just as bad in it's own ways as STL.
It's the time dilation that causes the problems. To the crew of the ships time is travelling slower than for those on the worlds they are trying to move between. Thus, when the crew get to their destination having travelled for a few weeks/months, lots more time has passed for those they've left behind and their travelling to see/invade; communication becomes too disjointed for it to mean anything. The Forever War is a good description of how it just doesn't work (the FTL as a means of galactic travel, not the book).
The Galaxy is just too big unless a race that lioves in it can find some way of bypassing physics. The Necrons jacking the Webway brings them into line with how the other Galactic residents have spread; FTL seemed, to my mind anyway, to 'hard science' to actually fit with the 40k 'verse. I read the new 'dex and actually felt sympathy for the Necrons and their Faustian bargain. I'm going to have to pick this book up so I can see the retro-renaissance (if I can coin such a clumsy word!) of the 'crons, and maybe the Sisters as well.

GFP
 

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I don't think you can just state this as fact. Those are suppositions, there's no evidence (yet) to back those assertion.
Really? The difficulty in this stems mainly from the fact that they have pretty much reached the pinnacle of scientific achievement bar a few shortcomings.

I would agree that they can repair some (all?) of their technology- we see this in the repair of 'wounded' necrons. We can also then assume that given time and resouces they can repair or replicate most, if not all, examples of their technology.
There is no reason to believe that the necrons could not rebuild any lost tech given the resources. Crypteks are not described as having the same superstitious nature as the Imperium`s Techpriest. In fact the only real hindrance is that Crypteks are seldom trusted by those with the power to grant these resources.

We have no evidence that the Necrons are predisposed to creating new technology though, with no examples of such technology.
Not entirely true. In Fall of Damnos, Ankh creates a booby trapped resurrection orb to eliminate a rival lord. While this may not be a unique tactic to him, the fact that the technology was unheard of suggests that it was in the very least uncommon.

Granted that is a rather weak example, but just because the need has not yet arisen does not mean the ability is not there.
 

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I don't disagree that the possibility is not there Serpion5, just that i don't think you can present those assumptions (logical as they may be) as hard fact yet. Until we have evidence it's merely conjecture. It was the tone (or at least the perceived tone) of what you said rather than the contents which i felt needed clarification.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
The way the Dolmen Gates are described by a Sister is that they seem "wrong" very much the same way things of the Warp seem "wrong" to humans. Things at angles that make no sense and impossible geometry, etc. I'd say the Gates are godtech created by the C'tan themselves back in the day. Does this mean the Crons can't make more? Unknown. I think, given time, Necrons can infact make anything they want, but perhaps only on certain Tomb(Crown?) Worlds.

The Canoptek Spyders' gloom prism is a good example. Although the codex screams repeatedly that the Necrons don't understand the Warp, they are somehow able to block "warp-spawned power." More contradictions, I guess.
 

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Actual FTL is a poor way to try to forge a Galactic empire, just as bad in it's own ways as STL.
It's the time dilation that causes the problems. To the crew of the ships time is travelling slower than for those on the worlds they are trying to move between. Thus, when the crew get to their destination having travelled for a few weeks/months, lots more time has passed for those they've left behind and their travelling to see/invade; communication becomes too disjointed for it to mean anything. The Forever War is a good description of how it just doesn't work (the FTL as a means of galactic travel, not the book).
The Galaxy is just too big unless a race that lioves in it can find some way of bypassing physics. The Necrons jacking the Webway brings them into line with how the other Galactic residents have spread; FTL seemed, to my mind anyway, to 'hard science' to actually fit with the 40k 'verse. I read the new 'dex and actually felt sympathy for the Necrons and their Faustian bargain. I'm going to have to pick this book up so I can see the retro-renaissance (if I can coin such a clumsy word!) of the 'crons, and maybe the Sisters as well.

GFP
The time dilation problem is usually solved by, instead of moving the ship faster than light, by warping space so that, in it's own frame of reference, the ship moves at sublight speeds but, compared to light outside the warped area of space, moves faster. Although, given that the Necrons have spent the last 60 million years in suspended animation, would spending a quick jump between stars asleep really be a problem for them?
 

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I will list what is know in cannon about necrons
- They can rebuild their own tech and constructs, but not warriors and immortals as they seem to be irreplaceable if completely destroyed. This is supported by the functions of spyders wraiths and scarabs, as well the role of cypteks.
-Necrons may develop further tech, although it is suggested by the cryptek entry that they have reached the highest level of technology they can in their current forms.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I take back what I said about this book. More impossible bullshit pulled off at the last second due to the monumental incompetence of supposedly ancient and powerful beings. Pretty much like most every other Space Marine book.

In any case, I'm getting tired of every description of the Crons saying how tough their metal is and how precise their accuracy is, and then they end up taking 10 years to kill anything and fail most of the time anyways. If anything they're weaker than the Imperium with a few shenanigans they can pull to occasionally even the odds. Pretty much exactly like the tabletop, actually.
 

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Your basing this on what? Necron's are the race that killed the old gods that actually made the eldar, and orcs. If anything the fluff supports the crons being able to wipe the imperium from existence altogether if they even had the slightest thought that such a act would further their goals. These are the beings that so perfected their science that they achieved near magical acts like bending the laws of reality to their own ends.

If anything their pathetic depictions in books and games is do to them being so threatening that the only way to make the imperium even look half decent is to make the crons screw up on a almost daily basis. Seriously the logic of your argument is so biased it makes me want to throw up. Let me break it down for you. The maximum level of technological achievement of the various empires goes like this. Necrons-Eldar-Dark eldar-Imperium (at its height)-Tau.

The imperium has always been the race that survives by its valor and sacrifice alone. Even space marines are pathetically weak compared to the best that the various xeno races can offer. If you can't accept this fact then you really need to rethink what army you should be playing. As the imperium has always been about surviving by the loss of millions and super human levels of heroics, and never by being the best at anything.

While necrons are at heart a dying race like the eldar. For although they can wipe entire marine chapters from existence, they can not recoup the lose of true necrotyre. meaning every victory comes with the lose of irreparable loses. While the imperium can replace even marine chapters given time.

Also rules are a terrible thing to base opinion on as they are reflexctive of game balance not what the units themselve truly represent. For instance a csm>sm, and guardsmen shouldn't be able to even wound things like carnifexes, and necron lords, but they can and do because it would be game breaking if the couldn't.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Wow, didn't think I'd anger you that much. Sorry.

I did not mean to imply that the Necrons are somehow not as advanced as the Imperium, only that there's no way the Necrons can actually defeat the Imperium on a galactic scale. Necrons communicated with gods. They had the technology to give gods bodies. They then turned around and killed those very same gods. There should be literally nothing short of more gods that can beat them. Ultimate technological control of the materium means nothing when they're getting beat by random organics in power armor. They also have no FTL drive, and as I stated earlier, I don't think they can make more Dolmen Gates and the Webway hates them, so those won't last forever.

Face it, the Necrons are gimped purposefully to put them on par with everyone else. They best they can do is troll the galaxy. Which is what I intend to do with them.
 

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I think the think that truly gimpgs them is the fact that they are made of numerous dynasties that have no true intrest in working together. Half of em seem to waste hundreds of years persueing their own insane ends. Its kinda like if the imperium reached a state of such technological perfection that all the high lords broke of to peruse their own personal hobbys, using space marines as simple tools to get more crap for their own gratification.

That is the real factor holding back the necrons these days. Simple apathy. As for them being slow that is a relative factor considering their ships are invisible nightmares in space battles (Battle flied gothic captures the ponderous yet near invisible nature of necron warships). As realistically it takes a armada to kill a hand full of necron vessels.

However I do agree that all the sheer volume of universe ending threats gets a bit old at times.
 

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I don't disagree that the possibility is not there Serpion5, just that i don't think you can present those assumptions (logical as they may be) as hard fact yet. Until we have evidence it's merely conjecture. It was the tone (or at least the perceived tone) of what you said rather than the contents which i felt needed clarification.
There`s not much I can do about the way you perceive my posts other than the subtext myself. Which I won`t :p

The way the Dolmen Gates are described by a Sister is that they seem "wrong" very much the same way things of the Warp seem "wrong" to humans. Things at angles that make no sense and impossible geometry, etc. I'd say the Gates are godtech created by the C'tan themselves back in the day. Does this mean the Crons can't make more? Unknown. I think, given time, Necrons can infact make anything they want, but perhaps only on certain Tomb(Crown?) Worlds.

The Canoptek Spyders' gloom prism is a good example. Although the codex screams repeatedly that the Necrons don't understand the Warp, they are somehow able to block "warp-spawned power." More contradictions, I guess.
Not really. Understanding and ability don`t necessarily have to equate. Necrons cannot use the warp, but that doesn`t mean they don`t understand the principles of its nature. Despite the Imperium`s narrow views, the warp does have limits and can be explained scientifically. Some inquisitors (Eisenhorn among them) acknowledge this. Technology can manipulate the warp as we`ve seen with the Imperium, the eldar, and now the necrons. One need not be a psyker to use a warp based weapon or pilot a ship equipped with void shields.

I think the think that truly gimpgs them is the fact that they are made of numerous dynasties that have no true intrest in working together. Half of em seem to waste hundreds of years persueing their own insane ends. Its kinda like if the imperium reached a state of such technological perfection that all the high lords broke of to peruse their own personal hobbys, using space marines as simple tools to get more crap for their own gratification.

That is the real factor holding back the necrons these days. Simple apathy. As for them being slow that is a relative factor considering their ships are invisible nightmares in space battles (Battle flied gothic captures the ponderous yet near invisible nature of necron warships). As realistically it takes a armada to kill a hand full of necron vessels.

However I do agree that all the sheer volume of universe ending threats gets a bit old at times.
:goodpost:

this, you see? By making the necrons:

A: Not a universally united force as before

B: All too human in their ambitions and personal flaws

C: Now able to be killed permanently

They are now a much more flavorful force to be reckoned with. :)
 
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