[Engelus]

rules that have more than 3 or 4 steps hurt my brain, and i have a hard time understanding them.

Please, if someone is an absolute expert on mixed armor, please explain in simple numbered steps, and then at teh end explain how it is an advantage or disadvantage.

the way we play it now, I always seem to end up with one marine, and 3-4 neophytes, and they don't seem to do me any good as meat shields when the initiates take the bullets for the new guys, and this doesn't really make sense to me in terms of fluff, or the fact that they have weaker armor.

also, how does mixed armor affect a unit with an invulnerable save in it. I always seem to lose the regular men to high AP stuff, and then the guy with the invulnerable save to a normal low power hit, and this also makes no sense to me.

lastly, what if no-one gets an armor save, and the better armor is in the majority, from something like a blast template, so I still have to take casualties from the better armor, even when no save is involved?

 

[The Son of Horus]

Mixed armour is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage. It's mostly a balancing thing so that hits are evenly distributed throughout the unit, whether you like it or not (there's no playing hero for the one guy in the 2+ armour, unfortunately.) Here's the simple breakdown.

1. You get shot. Let's say, for example, the squad consists of six Initiates and four Neophytes at this point.

2. There are three sort of vaguely-related steps here depending on what's happened.

A--The offending squad deals four wounds. There are more Initiates in the squad than Neophytes, so you roll four armour saves against the Initiates' power armour. Any casualties have to come from the Initiates. The good news is that the next time they get shot, the Neophytes will be in the majority, so barring situation (B) or (C) below, they'll take the hits, and not the more valuable Initiates.

B--The offending squad deals ten wounds. You take six armor saves on a 3+, and four on a 4+, as essentially, each model has been hit, but you're still able to choose which specific model is wounded when you fail a save.

C-- The offending squad deals more wounds than you have models. For the sake of argument, let's say that's twelve wounds. You follow the process in (B) above, rolling six armor saves for the Initiates, and four for the Neophytes. Now, after that, you've still got two wounds left over. Let's just assume they didn't bother using the Target Saturation/Torrent rule for sake of simplicity here. Now, you need to re-evaluate who's got the majority armour.

Let's say that you're now down to four initiates and three neophytes. The remaining two wounds are rolled on the initiates' power armour save because there are more of them than there are neophytes.


Now, onto Invulnerable Saves with the mixed armor rule. Basically, if the majority of the squad doesn't have an invulnerable save, then you don't get an invulnerable save. For example, a model with a storm shield in close combat is with four models that don't have one. You get hit with a power weapon and suffer three wounds. They have to be taken from models that do not have a storm shield, because the majority do not have a defense against the power weapon.

Your last question is, simply, yes. I think it's very much open to interpretation, but here's how I've always played it. If you get hit by a blast template and no one gets a save, you pull one at a time from the majority. The majority can change each time you pull a model, so pay attention to that. For example, your aforementioned six Initiates and four neophytes get tagged by a battle cannon, and suffer eight wounds. You'd pull three initiates (so you'd have three and four, making the neophytes the majority now), then you'd pull two neophytes, bringing the majority back to the initiates (3-2) . Basically, in that situation, you'd lose everyone except one Neophyte and one Initiate.

 

[Engelus]

awesome you answered so quick

concerning "B" so If I fail an Initiate save, I can still sack a Neophyte?

I've always been rolling all the hits from each volley on whatever was the majority at the beginning of the volley, no wonder I lose a lot.

 

[The Son of Horus]

As great as it'd be to use Neophytes as meat shields, but you have to pull Initiates when you roll 3+ armor saves. That being said, if you had seven initiates and three neophytes and took ten wounds, and for the sake of argument failed all ten armor saves on a 3+ since the Initiates were the majority, you'd still pull the three neophytes.

 

[torgoch]

Woah, very very wrong in places.

C-- The offending squad deals more wounds than you have models. For the sake of argument, let's say that's twelve wounds. You follow the process in (B) above, rolling six armor saves for the Initiates, and four for the Neophytes. Now, after that, you've still got two wounds left over. Let's just assume they didn't bother using the Target Saturation/Torrent rule for sake of simplicity here. Now, you need to re-evaluate who's got the majority armour.

The surplas wounds immediately go to the majority, so in the above situation you would roll 8 wounds on 3+ and 4 on 4+. Even if all 8 3+ failed, you would only suffer 6 casualties

Now, onto Invulnerable Saves with the mixed armor rule. Basically, if the majority of the squad doesn't have an invulnerable save, then you don't get an invulnerable save.

No.

Invulnerable saves are not armour saves. If you read the rules you wll note any model with the option of taking invulnerable save may use it instead of its normal save. The majority s determined by armour save, and if any of those models have an invulnerable, they may choose to use it.




As for blast templates, hits are allocated as normal. I.e. to the majority. So if the squad described above is hit by a demolisher cannon and five models are under the template, 5 of the majorty die, in this case 5 initiates.

 

[dakari-mane]

Woah, very very wrong in places.

Cheers dude saved me a whole chunk of writing :lol:

 

[maximus2467]

As for blast templates, hits are allocated as normal. I.e. to the majority. So if the squad described above is hit by a demolisher cannon and five models are under the template, 5 of the majorty die, in this case 5 initiates.

correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the rule book say the player who's just had their day ruined by the battle cannon can move templates around to cover the same amount/more models providing the template doesn't go out of its range, basically a way of stopping the enemy specifically targeting characters

 

[cccp]

so is it better to have higher armour majority over weak armour majority?

 

[uberschveinen]

correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the rule book say the player who's just had their day ruined by the battle cannon can move templates around to cover the same amount/more models providing the template doesn't go out of its range, basically a way of stopping the enemy specifically targeting characters

Third edition rule no longer exists. Now you take the number of casualties underthe template, but they come from anywhere in the squad as determined by normal processes.

 

[don_mondo]

As great as it'd be to use Neophytes as meat shields, but you have to pull Initiates when you roll 3+ armor saves. That being said, if you had seven initiates and three neophytes and took ten wounds, and for the sake of argument failed all ten armor saves on a 3+ since the Initiates were the majority, you'd still pull the three neophytes.

But you wouldn't roll all 10 saves against 3+, every model always gets it's own save if it has to take a hit.

Invunerable saves are not taken into account when detrermining mixed armor, and you DO still get to use them.

When rolling saves, casualties must be taken from the armor group that failed the save.

 

[Engelus]

so... if a single railgun wound comes into my squad of 10 initiates (3+) with a chaplain attached (3+A/4+i) can I choose for the chaplain to take the chance of the invulnerable save, or am I required to just sack one of the initiates.

 

[torgoch]

chaplain has the majority save, so you could allocate to the chaplain should you wish

 

[don_mondo]

But if the chaplain fails the invulnerable save, you have to take him as the casualty..............

 

[Engelus]

well, there's a reason to bring an adamantine mantle right there.