Melee MSU [1500][3 CAD]

2719 Views 22 Replies 6 Participants Last post by otasolgryn, Mar 19, 2015

Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · Mar 13, 2015

Trying something new. I figure Scoutshame and Lictorspam placed top 2 in the LVO, so I might as well imagine something just as loco. A bit concerned by my total lack of anti-air, and I'll struggle against a vehicle that I can't hit weak rear armor on, my only real AT being the Screamer squads... but I'm working with the minis I have available. S5 Furious Charge Hounds and S5 Heralds might well be enough to get rear armor AV10 down, against non-walkers...

Even if the enemy have a few Knights or vehicles I can't touch, I imagine that the sheer number of units and tarpits I have on the board will slow them down enough that I can still eke out a points based win. Maelstrom, especially.

Going for a combination of death by a thousand cuts and total threat overload--very mobile, very small squads, and everything that MSU has to offer. With any luck, big enemy shooty blobs will waste all their firepower vanishing a single 5-Hound block. HoS will hang at the back of Daemonette squads until the squad takes enough of a pounding that they have to shuck retinues and join a different squad (provided they haven't gone up in smoke with the unit), and will use their Steed movement to slingshot forward for an extra few inches of assault range, if necessary.

Deliberately surrendering First Blood here, obviously. Considering how many Daemonette w/ HoS on Steed squads and Seeker squads to Outflank in a given game--I obviously need space to deploy this horde, even if the Flesh Hounds are Scouting, but also need enough minis on the board that enemy shooting won't thin the herd so much that I trickle in piecemeal. The Warlord's Daemonettes, at least.

Could expand to 1750 or 1850 with a 4th HoS, 2 Nurgling Squads, and another 2 Flesh Hound squads.

CAD 1

80 - HoS w/ Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade) & a Steed of Slaanesh [Warlord]

90 - 10 Daemonettes
90 - 10 Daemonettes

60 - 5 Seekers
60 - 5 Seekers
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

CAD 2

80 - HoS w/ Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade) & a Steed of Slaanesh

90 - 10 Daemonettes
90 - 10 Daemonettes

100 - 4 Screamers
100 - 4 Screamers
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

CAD 3

80 - HoS w/ Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade) & a Steed of Slaanesh

90 - 10 Daemonettes
90 - 10 Daemonettes

80 - 5 Flesh Hounds
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #2 · Mar 13, 2015 (Edited)

Was thinking "hmm, damn, it's a shame I glued some Horrors to the back of this 9th Screamer I have, so I can't use it for 3x 3 Screamers," when it occurred to me, "Huh, I still haven't tested out the mechanic of the Blue Scribes rolling on Daemonology every turn with a 50% chance at passing a WC3 power with no psychic test, and The Blue Scribes cost riiiight about as much as one of these Heralds..." and the rest is a fevered blur. A blur that included a lot of points jiggling to get things juuust right, and included the addition of a Portalglyph, because why not. Fewer Steed-Heralds, though.

Scribes are hiding on their own. Fairly sure I can hide them out of sight. Hoping to turn themselves into a Greater Daemon early in the game, but can also summon in replacement Flesh Hounds or Screamers, some fresh Fiends or Flamers, or even a Herald.

1850, 4 CAD

CAD 1

80 - HoS w/ Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade) & a Steed of Slaanesh [Warlord]

90 - 10 Daemonettes
90 - 10 Daemonettes

72 - 6 Seekers
72 - 6 Seekers
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

CAD 2

80 - HoS w/ Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade) & a Steed of Slaanesh

90 - 10 Daemonettes
90 - 10 Daemonettes

100 - 4 Screamers
100 - 4 Screamers
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

CAD 3

81 - The Blue Scribes

90 - 10 Daemonettes
90 - 10 Daemonettes

80 - 5 Flesh Hounds
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

CAD 4

75 - HoN w/ Exalted Reward (0: Portalglyph)

45 - 3 Nurgling Swarms
45 - 3 Nurgling Swarms

80 - 5 Flesh Hounds
80 - 5 Flesh Hounds

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 13, 2015 (Edited)

Ryu_Niimura said:
Your only option is the Blight Drone from forge world or a flying Greater Daemon/Prince, neither of which are exceptionally good or reliable.

Basically, in an MSU list. I could ally in CSM for a Hellblade, or something, but then I'd be bringing in a cultist/sorc tax for the cheapest possible minimum detachment who wouldn't really add anything--essentially doubling the cost of the Hellblade. And a Daemon Prince would cost more than that doubled cost...

I mean, I could get an ADL, but a) a single lascannon or quadgun aren't thaaat spectacular at taking out flyers and b) if I were taking an ADL, I'd rather grab a comms relay, honestly... I just dread running up against 3 Flyrants, since those fools would be wiping out a unit each per turn, basically.

Uveron said:
I haven't been totally clear on how Scoutshame and Lictorspam, work as lists. But both do appear to have a hard-hitting element.

I'll be honest--I don't really get Scoutshame, either. Hence why so many people have been shamed by it, I think. I mean, I get some of the working elements, all of which appear to be pretty solid--maxing out IF chapter tactics with a lot of cheap bolters and Devastators for Tank Hunter buffs; Lysander and some psykers in a Centurionstar; DSing BA command squad with melta; thunderfire cannon...

But scouts are so damn fragile. I feel like looking at this list illuminates the gap between a good list-builder and an excellent list-player, since it got to 2nd place. I don't think I'm missing any hidden insanely powerful synergies, am I?

Lictorspam is more comforting in how alien and unfamiliar it is--it's not using elements I'm used to seeing, used in some original manner.

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #8 · Mar 13, 2015

otasolgryn said:
But would be better if the opponent had other things to use his dispel dice on.
Perhaps a magic lvl for one of the Heralds?
Then there is also something to use the free d6 dice for.

I've been thinking something in that vein. Horrors for the Scribes to hide in would use those dice pretty well, I think. Of course, if I want to fit those in, that's one less squad of Daemonettes... (though it's also, admittedly, one fewer unit choking the front of the deployment zone trying to scramble toward the enemy)

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #9 · Mar 13, 2015

Vaz said:
Fleshhounds. Wow. Never thought I'd see them become a centrepoint of ANY list.

S3 Seekers with Rending don't cut it against T5 3++ Wraiths. 35 Flesh Hounds with Furious Charge might... (though I4 is a bit concerning)

Plus, well, they're a not-too-expensive Scouting chaff that will choke up enemies with a whole shedload of wounds, assaulting after only one phase of enemy shooting (bottom of T1 or top of T2). And any unit they tie up can't shoot at the 'Nettes and Seekers as those close the gap...

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #11 · Mar 13, 2015

otasolgryn said:
i really like the MSU approach.

have to see if i cant convince the locals to multiple CADS.

and been very happy about finding the 25 points for just one psyker lvl.

its alot of dice for 25 points. and it does give you 2-3 spell to use of, depending

Multiple CADs isn't going to see any play in a lot of tourneys, I can't help but think. And I just have to pray not to roll up The Scouring (insist on playing Maelstrom, I suppose?)

And yeah, that psychic aspect seems important. If I can get another summoning unit on top of the Scribes and Portalglyph, who knows, I might well be able to replace losses even faster.

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #14 · Mar 14, 2015

Bahkara said:
It will depend if your local meta allows self ally and if they have a detachment limit.

Most major tournaments allow self ally but with a 0-1 or 0-2 limit.

Having played both with and against a msu daemon summoning list I've found it very unreliable. Even with 20+ power dice

Yeah, I'm familiar with the general, regular tourney rule of "limited to 2 detachments, most of the time not 2 CADs." Hence this as a list destined for casual play only, unless I combined all these minimum-size squads into maximum-sized squads, just about filling out a CAD-and-a-little, but... nah. Kinda defeats the point of the MSU side of the list, doesn't it? Then you get tempted into expensively buffed Heralds to buff the squad even more with locuses and such... blah.

And, uh, yeah, I'm not too enchanted with pure summoning lists, myself. Hence the focus on melee units, with just a garnish of supplementary units being created: The Blue Scribes and Portalglyph, the things I have in the list, don't even roll for psychic tests. The discussion has been whether or not to introduce so much as a single psychic unit that can take advantage of the naturally-rolled D6 Warp Charge I'd otherwise be wasting every turn...

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #16 · Mar 14, 2015 (Edited)

Uveron said:
But I still feel that somehow you need some heavy hiting unit. I will have a think...

I'm glad you like it more and more, because I keep thinking up lists that could shred it. 3+ Flyrants, Necrons that lean heavily on their AV13-all-around vehicles until penned (backed up by 6-18 Wraiths of course because of course)... well, not that these lists could shred it per se, I just would have a not too fun game of being the mole in a game of whack-a-mole, trying to claim as many objective points as possible while hoping my units do't dwindle too fast. I mean, it would certainly make for a different playstyle than I'm used to!

The list could use some Armorbane or S10 or something. A Mayhem Pack of 3 Helbrutes with multi-meltas and power fists DSing in? That introduces an armor element I was trying to minimize, so that enemy players would find minimal use for their AT weapons besides 1-shotting Flesh Hounds and Screamers. And if I'm going for 3 Helbrutes, I could well grab 2 naked Soul Grinders, to boot. 5 Walkers or 6-7 squads of wee beasties and 'nettes? Take your pick!

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #18 · Mar 15, 2015

Uveron said:
But I think in 7th, this or some variation of this is the way to win.

I have been planning to sit down and have a think about how to make this list (or a variant work) with the current LVO rules. (Which is the torment rules set, I like using the most when thinking about 'competitive play')

If it comes down to kill points, you're pretty hosed. Or the Scouring. Though I suppose with the "no double CAD" aspect of the LVO format, you could only get 3 Fast Attack choices in the first place... it may be hard to come up with something like this, which is so reliant on filling out FA slots. I mean, throw out some Seeker Cavalcades of chariots to use more force org slots on the cheap? Self-ally (like I think the LVO rules allow) for a 4th FA slot? Hell, even bring some Flamers or the like to use Elites, too?

The problem then is you're bringing in lesser choices to fill out a similar number of slots--though I'll be honest, I haven't playtested Seeker Chariots, really, so dunno how "lesser" they are, in a glass-spam melee-rush.

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #20 · Mar 15, 2015

Uveron said:
It would be nice if we had a good formation or something along these lines...

Precisely what I've been thinking, these past few days. Can't wait until the new Dex comes out with god-specific formations for the "Gilded Nipple-Parade of Slaanesh" or whatever--a Chariot Cavalcade, an HQ, 2-4 squads of 'Nettes, and 1-3 squads of Seekers, who get some rules bonus to boot--assault after running, or something. Kinda excited for next time the Daemons codex rolls around...

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Mossy Toes

Discussion Starter · #22 · Mar 19, 2015

Well. Apparently I'm going to have to field this list alongside the Daemonkin: Khorne codex, since that one gets "Blood Points" for every units I kill and that die, that can be used to summon new units. So since I've maximized my personal chance to lose units... wham! Free Bloodthirster!

A Strength D Bloodthirster sounds tempting, too, even if it is a I1.

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