[Woodzee316]

reading the rules it says if a psyker takes his spells from one school he has the psychic focus so gets the primaris free. with chaos marines that are marked they don't get psychic focus but automatically gain the primaris.

So my question is with my Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer he has to take a spell from the Tzeentch table, but because he already knows the primaris (so a spell from tzeentch), so with his lvl1 can he then take the a spell from daemonology ( as all psykers also get the daemonology table as well)?

just curious of other peoples interpretation.

 

[Mossy Toes]

The ITC faq (unofficial faq adopted by most tournaments, these days) rules that a psyker can only get one primaris free; that having powers from 2 schools (even if one is the forced primaris) means you aren't eligible for a second free primaris.

It is a gray area in the wording though, definitely! It comes down to consensus and how your local group does it, honestly, I think. Until the ITC faq ruled it out, I definitely played my daemons that way--just made sure to check in with my opponent to make sure they were ok with it before my matches, so when my ML1 Horrors suddenly had 3 psychic powers...

 

[Rush Darling]

Can definitely see the logic loop.

1) Psyker takes one power from daemonology.

2) Psyker has psychic focus - gains daemonology primaris.

3) Psyker has chaos psychic focus - gains Tzeentch primaris.

Two conflicting rules here, so wording is important:

4 A) If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus and the associated primaris power.

4 B) If a psyker has a mark of chaos or is a daemon of a particular chaos god, that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

So I suppose the real question is whether "in addition to any other powers it knows" constitutes an exception to 4 A. Given the way it's worded as "during the course of the game" personally I'd argue that this rule was intended to apply to units that can generate powers mid-game (not that I have an example of such a unit, but maybe it was something they intended).

It's also very important to note that it specifically states under generating psychic powers:

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins

Ergo any rule that stipulates "during the course of the game" does not apply as powers are generated before the game even starts.

Seems fairly clear cut to me, though pretty tricky to find all the details. Thoughts?

EDIT: Summary : Enjoy your three psychic powers.

 

[Xabre]

So, the reason for Chaos Focus is actually because of Level 2+ Marked Chaos Psykers. Let me explain.

The Aspiring Sorcerer that comes with Rubric Space Marines is a Level 1, and he has the Mark of Tzeentch.

Based on the rules in the CSM codex, he MUST generate 1, and up to half from his god. There is no loophole here, if flat out says MUST ROLL AT LEAST ONE (page 70). It doesn't say 'must have'. It says must roll.

if you're rolling, you gain your Primaris. If you're rolling on Tzeentch, you gain's Tzeentch's Primaris. If you're level 1, then it's a non-issue; you gain your Primaris the same way a level 1 Loyalist would gain their Primaris.

When you're level 2, things get complicated. You MUST ROLL one power, but you CAN'T roll two powers, because it says 'may roll up to half'. This disqualifies you from maxing out and getting the Primaris. That's why Chaos Focus exists; so you always have the Primaris from the Mark table as a consolation prize.

TLR - No.


Addendum: I'm not speaking about Chaos Demons. I don't know how they work, honestly. I'm fairly certain, however, that the Chaos Focus only applies to MARK of chaos, so Demons don't qualify to get bonus powers (such as Horrors taking Daemonology and also getting the Tzeentch Primaris).

Addendum2: Just looked up the rule again. Yes, it looks like Horrors could get away with it. Demons can skip rolling on the god's powers, but Chaos Psychic Focus still gives it to them. THAT is the loophole, since it's meant to be one Psychic Focus or the other.

 

[ntaw]

I know it's been said at this point, but the CSM book is pretty clear on this to my eyes.

If the Psyker has a Mark of Chaos, or is a Daemon of a
particular Chaos God, 1they must roll at least one, 2and may
roll up to half, of their powers on the table that corresponds
to their patron deity.

1. if the psyker is ML1 and has the mark of a specific god, they must roll their one power on the corresponding psychic table (which of course gives them psychic focus since they generated all their powers from one table)

2. if the psyker is ML2+ and has the mark of a specific god, they can only generate half of their powers (I assume rounding up because that's the way of this game in a lot of other instances) from that specific table.

I can find no mention of this 'Chaos Focus' you guys bring up in the CSM 'dex. Based on what I read in the Codex, the only way a Chaos psyker can get psychic focus on a table is if they are ML1. What's all this about 'Chaos Focus'? Even in the Daemon book I can't find this sentence anywhere:

If a psyker has a mark of chaos or is a daemon of a particular chaos god, that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows.

Where's it at?? :scratchhead:

 

[Xabre]

I can find no mention of this 'Chaos Focus' you guys bring up in the CSM 'dex. Based on what I read in the Codex, the only way a Chaos psyker can get psychic focus on a table is if they are ML1. What's all this about 'Chaos Focus'? Even in the Daemon book I can't find this sentence anywhere:

Where's it at?? :scratchhead:

It's in the BRB actually, on the same page as the Psychic Focus rule.

RAI, it'd be one or the other. However, shoddy writing has left it that demons get to doubledip.

 

[ntaw]

It's in the BRB actually, on the same page as the Psychic Focus rule.

Perfect! I was wondering, since I knew I had even read it before.

When you're level 2, things get complicated. You MUST ROLL one power, but you CAN'T roll two powers, because it says 'may roll up to half'. This disqualifies you from maxing out and getting the Primaris. That's why Chaos Focus exists; so you always have the Primaris from the Mark table as a consolation prize.

This is right on the money, it's totally a consolation prize for not being able to gain Psychic Focus normally.

Just looked up the rule again. Yes, it looks like Horrors could get away with it. Demons can skip rolling on the god's powers, but Chaos Psychic Focus still gives it to them. THAT is the loophole, since it's meant to be one Psychic Focus or the other.

Pink Horrors generate their powers from the Change table only, and as such would get normal Psychic Focus without needing Chaos Psychic Focus. How do they get to skip rolling or gain powers from another discipline?

 

[Xabre]

Pink Horrors generate their powers from the Change table only, and as such would get normal Psychic Focus without needing Chaos Psychic Focus. How do they get to skip rolling or gain powers from another discipline?

It's in the most recent (and I use that term loosely) GW errata for Demons: Any psyker or Brotherhood of Psyker model in the codex can take Daemonology on top of their usual powers.

As INTENDED, Horrors could take Daemonology and get the free Primaris.

As WRITTEN, they take Daemonology, get the free Primaris, and get the Change Primaris.

 

[Rush Darling]

Huh, I was just going off the BRB. Thanks for the break down Xabre, that's a very bizarre loophole. I've not come across it enough to have a good handle on an RAI perspective, but I just called it as I saw it.

Is it really that much of a problem? Unless I'm mistaken (and at the risk of starting a whole other discussion) psykers can only cast a number of powers equal to their mastery level.

The increased versatility must be nice, but given the issues I have getting multiple psykers to cast even a single power each reliably, it doesn't sound all that broken to me, certainly not in the grand scheme of things.

Might just be my ignorance of chaos psychic powers.

 

[ntaw]

As INTENDED, Horrors could take Daemonology and get the free Primaris.

As WRITTEN, they take Daemonology, get the free Primaris, and get the Change Primaris.

Checked and double checked and I fully agree. Not that I play Daemons/Chaos, but I face them a lot so this is pertinent info for me.

Unless I'm mistaken (and at the risk of starting a whole other discussion) psykers can only cast a number of powers equal to their mastery level.

You are mistaken. While this may have been the case in previous editions I'm still trying to forget, it is not the case in 7th edition.

iven the issues I have getting multiple psykers to cast even a single power each reliably, it doesn't sound all that broken to me

I've faced Daemon lists with 15+ masterly level points. They do what they want in the psychic phase :laugh:

 

[Xabre]

Is it really that much of a problem? Unless I'm mistaken (and at the risk of starting a whole other discussion) psykers can only cast a number of powers equal to their mastery level.

Additional shoddy rules-writing.

The exact quote from the rules is: The number of powers they can cast is dependent on their level. HOWEVER, it never clearly states HOW it's dependent.

General consensus is that since level dictates how many powers they can learn, then that's how many they can cast.

There is another line further in the psychic rules that basically say 'keep casting till you run dry of dice'.

(Can you tell I've had this discussion recently?)

 

[Mossy Toes]

The exact quote from the rules is: The number of powers they can cast is dependent on their level. HOWEVER, it never clearly states HOW it's dependent.

Well, given that a unit can only attempt to cast each power it knows once, it's limited in the number it can cast by how many it knows, I suppose.

 

[ntaw]

The number of powers they can cast is dependent on their level.

:laugh: tell that to Librarius Conclaves.

There is another line further in the psychic rules that basically say 'keep casting till you run dry of dice'.

This one is the key.

 

[Woodzee316]

I don't have my BRB with me so paraphrasing from memory back in the rules when it talks of psychic focus it also says marked psykers can never gain psychic focus however they gain the primaris power from their mark for free.

So I suppose in this situation the aspiring sorcerer gets to roll on the table and then gets the primaris for free. otherwise they would be just stuck with the primaris because they know have two spells from tzeentch although they are only ML1.

 

[alt-f4]

So, a Keeper of Secrets rolling up all its powers from the Telepathy list gains the Telepathy free Primaris, then the Slaanesh free Primaris due to the Chaos Focus rule ?

 

[Xabre]

So, a Keeper of Secrets rolling up all its powers from the Telepathy list gains the Telepathy free Primaris, then the Slaanesh free Primaris due to the Chaos Focus rule ?

Due to the poor wording in the BRB, yes. But it ONLY works with Demons of Chaos, and not anyone else.

 

[Rush Darling]

Learning all the things today!

I'll have another read through the psychic phase when I get back to my cave, just to get in straight in my head. More questions may follow xD

Much appreciated though, thanks guys.

 

[Woodzee316]

ok a new development has just been brought to my attention by our local tournament organiser. Our official tournaments in Australia are run to the ANZ40kFAQ.
under psychic rules FAQ it states

​

4. A psyker with a mark of Chaos or a Daemon of a particular Chaos god can never make use of Psychic focus, but Chaos psychic focus always applies.

So under this FAQ ruling I can't actually take my one spell from another discipline and grab the freebie primaris. Which I would believe to be RAI.

There we go.

 

[Mossy Toes]

Yup, sounds like what I was talking about with the ITC faq--depends on local standards. Good that you figured this out before whatever local events you were planning on attending!