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Discussion Starter #1
There are lots of rumours at the moment about the marine codex getting redone, so i though i'd start this thread to discuss it.

Is it needed? Rumours would be it would bring them somewhere along the lines of the new DA, but then i'd be asking myself whats the point in the DA codex?

I do feel it would be a good move though as i think marines are one of the most powerful codex's out there. Things that i feel need changes

Librarians-powers need point re-adjustment as its obvious some are worth more than others. I also think psychic hood being in the points is a bit much and they should have it as a wargear option again, although not at the huge points it was before.

Assault Cannons: I think there too good for the points. They are the best weapon against almost everything the army could face, but do not have that price tag.

Rhino's: Too expensive given the 4th edition vechile rules. Should come with Extra armour and smokes as standard.

Drop pods: Too cheap for what they do. Shouldn't give auto-vps though.

Preds: SHould have a price hike. Not a huge amount but i think there worth more that they cost now. Autocannon turret should be twin-linked as well IMO.

Speeders: Too cheap, prob because of the AC though so if that was dealt with wouldn't be a problem

Whirlwinds: Again i think i bit cheap for what they do. With such low min range they are awesome. Not overly broken but in tweek range imo.

Veterans: Should be much more desireable. I think that the Vet skills should be a bit cheaper for them maybe just by a point per model. As in chaos they can combo up.....inf/tankhunter for example whilst marines can only take 1. Prehaps jumppack option, but should be limited 0-1.

Razorback i think its a tad expensive atm, though not extraordinarily so. Maybe smokes and EA as standard.

Vechile upgrades: These should be as vechile upgrade options and price per vechile. Same in all lists IMO. something like POMS is worth a hell of a lot more on a vind for example than on a razorback.
 

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Although popular I just don't think marine armies are overpowered. I know we all come across the occasional blip but I'm not convinced time should be wasted before updating all the other aging codices.

If they wanted to tweak in a WD article however I would like the following.

Change or lose FOTD too strong against some armies and pointless against others.

Tweak Ass Cannons. Just lose the rending for me.

Points break for bikes and assault marines. These are just not seen enough.

Points break for rhinos and razorbacks.

I wouldn't mess with predators I think currently you get what you pay for.

The reason I say they are not currently overpowered is that I just don't fear them. I play Orks, Speed Freeks, Nids, Word Bearers, Tau and Alpha legion and I just dont feel worried seeing my opponents setting up marines. Unlke the feeling of seeing a mature guy setting up dark eldar which will cause a moments pause.
 

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aye hes right thay dont worry me as ive got 150 of them so if i know anything its that there ok as thay are as i can beat anyone and anyone can beat me

gris
 

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Porn King!!!
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Not being a marine player at all I don't know if I am really able to comment here but I do like the sounds of some of your points. POMS should indeed be variable costs depending on the vehicle. Mutated Hull is for chaos, costing more for larger vehicles than it does for smaller, more fragile ones. Making upgrades in the SM codex work in a similar way would make sense.

Being a Thousand Sons player, I agree wholeheartedly that something needs to be done about the Psychic Hood. Leave the points alone if you want but make it so the Hood can only block a single power per turn, not EVERY power that turn.

I also like the idea that the Redux will do away with the lame ass min/max armies you constantly see. Seeing a marine army with almost as many lascannons and plasma guns as there are troops in it is infuriating. Chaos can do something similar yes and I think it should be done away with for them as well. Overall, it is a game ruining way to build a list and is absolutely no fun to play against.
 

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Honestly, I'd like to see a revamp of Dark Eldar, Orcs or something outdated like that before messing with the Astartes. I kind of like the SM as-is. Including the rending Assault Cannon (not a popular opinion I guess, but it's nice for them to have a really nasty weapon as well. Meh)
 

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yeah, a SM redux is definatley not needed or at least shouldn't be a priority right now. Theres so many other things being neglected that should be covered before that comes out. I don't really see anything needed to be redone right now. I play marine players all the time and don't get hammered by them all that much (and thats with a few that have souped up lists). Lets get the other stuff going (Orks especially!)
 

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I have this rediculous idea for GW to solve these issues...

PLAYTEST YOUR RULES!!!!

Phew. Sure, they are making more and more codexes, but they are really losing money when they keep going back to the same thing. The staff could be used to, I don't know, improve the game as a whole. I realize the entirety of 3rd edition was to move away from veterans like myself and move towards the ease of new gamers and a younger, richer crowd. Everyone just wants more things for their armies, albeit it better rules, options, or just a better layout. They really just need to playtest the damn codex parts people complain about and see what works.
Andy Chambers needs to return.

-Khaine-
 

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star ship stuff?

last i heard, he was freelance. He's writing Necromunda books for GW, did some work for Mongoose, and just doing his own thing and enjoying himself.
 

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Until they redo the Ork codex, some of those marine changes would be pretty unfair to my greenskins (keep in mind I play marines too, and have been playing them longer than orks so this is not a bias).

Cheaper Rhinos- Many people are saying Drop Pods and Rhinos should switch points costs. While I do think the drop pod is a bit cheap compared to what it does, a 30 point Rhino is a bit rediculous when you consider an Ork Trukk is 30 points BEFORE you buy its mandatory BS 2 weapon (likely a 1 shot rokkit that will never get a chance to fire even at its crappy BS). I can live with the Trukk being open topped and 10 armor all around while gaining the advantage of being fast, but having it cost more than a rhino is a bit unbalanced I think. There are also a group who wants to see smoke and EA standard. Considering orks can't take EA at all (armor plates is crap compared to EA) making it free is horrifying to me.

Veteran Skills- Making tank hunters 2 points a model is also a bit unbalanced I think because Ork tankbustas pay essentially 2 points per model for the skill. I would say having models who have bs4, 3+ armor saves and 48 inch anti tank weapons should have to pay more for tank hunters than models with bs2, 6+ armor and an anti-tank weapon that is only 24 inches in range.

Assault Cannons- While I do not think they are particularly unbalanced against other armies, I think they are unbalanced in their own list. I am of the group who agrees with a roll of a 6 counting as ap1. This gives it a decent chance to pop 12 armor (Really the max armor it should pop anyhow) and still bypass plenty of armor saves.

Predators- I think the cost of predators is fine, though I've always believed the auto cannon should be twin linked and the las cannon not.

Razorbacks- A hard call here. I've seen some very effective armies built around them (mostly 6 man las-plas with heavy bolter razorbacks). So I'm not certain they need a points adjustment. I would almost consider possibly bumping the front armor to 12 (with a points adjustment to match) and moving it to heavy support, making it kind of like a falcon but I know the marines already have lots of heavy support choices and it would kill armies who use them as their main transport. Just a crazy thought is all.

Combat Squads- I would LOVE to see all marine armies go to combat squads. Ending the days of 6 man las-plas in half of all marine armies would be great while trading them the flexibility of moving the assault or rapid fire weapon and keeping their heavy weapon stationary. Of course I also think marine players will throw a fit if they have to go to this and Chaos can continue making 5 man las cannon tac squads.

In the end, GW needs to fix orks before they go making even more marine changes. I am pretty sick of playing with outdated wargear like the Grabba Stik (for those that don't know, it allows the user to make its full attacks if within 2 inches of an enemy model in cc). Fat lot of good it does us now.
 

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This may sound cynical but the whole argument about the assault cannon being too good is sort of moot. When GW took a look at their best selling army they realized they would need a way to make players who already had a huge force buy more crap. What better way than to make a weapon that was nearly useless into the best gun in the army? You already have a Land raider? Well now you can have 2! You used to use rhino rush? Now it's much harder, but you can buy drop pods!

The same sort of thing happened with the eldar. Make DA's great because no one ueses them. Make fireprisms great for basically the same reason. Tone down their best basic CC unit, but then throw something even more rediculous out there that they will likely have to buy.

I'm not saying them trying their hardest to turn a big profit is a bad thing, but if we see rules that don't make sense, perhaps we should be looking towards sales instead of sense.
 

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As much as I love my marines I agree that they are not in need for any change that warrants taking the place of a new codex release. A White Dwarf article, Errata, or even just a simple reprint would suit me just fine; instead of a Marine Redux taking a new codex slot, lets see a new book for the Space Wolves or the Blood Angels. (This is based of the pattern of Imperium, Xenos, Imperium, Xenos that the codex all seem to follow.)

EDIT

I was looking through the GW US site and read the brief article, Who are the Dark Angels?, and thought that this was interesting:


Obsessed with the idea that they can remove this ancient stain on their honor through unfaltering zeal, the Dark Angels have fought the enemies of the Emperor with grim determination. Their Space Marines and Scouts are uniquely versatile, capable of splitting into smaller Combat Squads to better handle the foe.

That last bit from the first paragraph seems to imply that the Dark Angels will be the only ones that will have the combat squads, do you all think this is true or that it is just talk for an article?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
seems to imply that its a good thing that they can do, whilst marines can still take a 5 man squad if they choose and take a heavy and special weapon, which i can't see any way in which that is not better?
 

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The only thing i'd like to see changed in the marine codex is to do something that would promote some variety in marine lists. I'm fed up with las/plas/assault cannon spam nowadays.

Anyway, i really hope that SMs dont come around again. Theres too much else that needs fixing first but marines are a cashcow.
 

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I do think the Las/plas C&P is getting a bit too boring. I think a change in points in that department is all that is needed. Say upping Plas to 20 and las 25 would be sufficent. May well see a rise in ML usage (though based on that i would say put ML to 15).

Also i thought it was a shame they missed the opportunity with the traits to be more restrictive. Sorry most of the minor traits are laughable (ohhh no no allies) and should be gotten rid of.

A nice trait i would have like to have seen would have been similar to cleanse and purify but for heavy weapons. Say allowing a tzc squad to have a 2nd hvy weapon instead of a special but at an inflated cost (double what i put above) would be cool.

Also one to do with using rhinos/rbacks, make them slightly cheaper but ALL unit must have one. That woud be cool.

But then as i have said before i very very very much doubt seeing a new sm dex this side of dec 09.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Good ideas scuzz, i think maybe making it so you need 8 guys to take a heavy and special as well might encourage bigger squads. Would be nice if plasmacannons where at a more attractive comparitive pts cost.
 

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I'd like to see the traits replaced with something more akin to IG doctorines. They make much more sense and tend to be a lot better balanced. Plus I like the fact that doctorines handle one thing at a time. Not like traits where you sometimes get crap you didn't want or doesn't match your fluff because it's part of the trait.
 
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