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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've recently read a few Marines Malevolent stories and I just don't understand their set up or their logistics. I will explain by 2 main queries

They all seem to hate each other and will gladly kill each other off? - Other than the Night Lords or World Eaters pre heresy, no other Space Marines ever in the history of GW have ever been portrayed in this negative light. In the short story Devils Trappings one of them deliberately tries to cripple his fellow marine so that they can escape. In another story who's name escapes me they try to rescue some captured Imperial Guard commanders. In it the Commander hates the leader of their Elite company and actually betrayed him to the Black Templars at the end of the story.

They don't have access to any armouries or spare parts so they're constantly having to scavenge? Every other Chapter has at least some ability to request replacement armour or fix broken armour. However it's been repeated in the 2 stories mentioned above that some of the Marines are using partly broken armour and have almost no ammunition. Why don't they just request some from the Imperium or Mechanicum? Do they have no allies at all?

Of course if they are the loyalist remnants of the Night Lords (which to me seems the most likely as the World Eaters pre Butcher Nails had more honour than the Marines Malevolent seem to have) then this would make sense.
 

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Not too sure of their background, but I do remember them being pricks in the Salamanders books, stealing a shipload of Heresy era armour, and there's the incident on Armageddon when they bombard a refugee camp just to kill a few orks. They certainly have earned their title.
 

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I don't think it's so much that they hate each other but rather self interest. If betraying another marine could advance their position or save themselves they'll do it. In the salamander books they worked ok with the salamanders up to a point.

But everything else to chalked up to them being borderline censured.

When a Salamander captain punches another commander it says allot about them. The salamanders are known to be the nicest chapter willing to respect all humans, just because that's their way.
 

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I've recently read a few Marines Malevolent stories and I just don't understand their set up or their logistics. I will explain by 2 main queries

They all seem to hate each other and will gladly kill each other off? - Other than the Night Lords or World Eaters pre heresy, no other Space Marines ever in the history of GW have ever been portrayed in this negative light. In the short story Devils Trappings one of them deliberately tries to cripple his fellow marine so that they can escape. In another story who's name escapes me they try to rescue some captured Imperial Guard commanders. In it the Commander hates the leader of their Elite company and actually betrayed him to the Black Templars at the end of the story.

They don't have access to any armouries or spare parts so they're constantly having to scavenge? Every other Chapter has at least some ability to request replacement armour or fix broken armour. However it's been repeated in the 2 stories mentioned above that some of the Marines are using partly broken armour and have almost no ammunition. Why don't they just request some from the Imperium or Mechanicum? Do they have no allies at all?

Of course if they are the loyalist remnants of the Night Lords (which to me seems the most likely as the World Eaters pre Butcher Nails had more honour than the Marines Malevolent seem to have) then this would make sense.
Some from the Astartes go through much more gruling history and campaigns then others. The Marines Malevolent seem to be one of those military organizations that have been through a lot and have disregard for life. It also seems like maybe the only thing to look forward to in the ranks of the Marines Malevolent is rising up in the ranks and disregarding how many people you screw over. Thats pretty realistic though with an organization that really has nothing more to look forward to then the old Imperial rhetoric.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Not too sure of their background, but I do remember them being pricks in the Salamanders books, stealing a shipload of Heresy era armour, and there's the incident on Armageddon when they bombard a refugee camp just to kill a few orks. They certainly have earned their title.
I don't think it's so much that they hate each other but rather self interest. If betraying another marine could advance their position or save themselves they'll do it. In the salamander books they worked ok with the salamanders up to a point.

But everything else to chalked up to them being borderline censured.

When a Salamander captain punches another commander it says allot about them. The salamanders are known to be the nicest chapter willing to respect all humans, just because that's their way.


Yeah but I just think it's really odd. They are so completely different to all other loyalist Chapters.

Looking at the evidence from White Dwarf 249, we know that they existed in the 32nd millenium so it's possible they are a 2nd founding Chapter from an unknown source so lets look at the possible sources of their geneseed:

Starting with the Loyalists:

The Blood Angels and their successors are basically portrayed as similar to the pre Angron War Hounds (or in the case of the Flesh Tearers almost identical to the butchers nails World Eaters). The MM's don't operate in this way and there is no evidence they suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst so we can rule out the Blood Angels.

The Ultramarines and their successors are a bit of a mix but all seem to be honourable and not self serving. We know the Mortifactors are one of the Chapters which has changed the most from their Ultramarines source but even so they are still honourable and not back stabbing. Equally the Doom Eagles are changed in their outlook but equally are honourable and not back stabbing. It's possible the MMs are descended from the Ultramarines but unlikely in my opinion.

The Space Wolves are loyal to each other like the wolves they think they are and there is no evidence in the stories about the MMs having fangs so I think we can rule the Wolves out.

The Salamanders? Well it's interesting we got to see a couple of nasty ones in one of the Sallies novels and these nasty ones did seem to bear a similarity to the MM but these seemed to be the bad apples as it were as the Sallies as a whole did not share this bad attitude.

The Raven Guard and their successors are a very interesting one for me. We know that Corax expelled several Nomad Predation fleets when he took over the XIX Legion. It's possible that like the Carcharodon Astra, the Marines Malevolent were another of theese. After all Corax didn't like their attitudes towards humanity and the modus operandi in warfare. It's not such a huge leap to imagine that one of the nomad predation fleets would be seen as an outcast by the Imperium and thus would resort to scavenging and their attitudes towards humanity would morph into a survival of the fittest mentality and they would turn on each other .

The White Scars are another interesting one simply as we don't know enough about them but from what we do know from Scars and Brotherhood of the Storm I just don't see the MMs as a successor Chapter of Jaghati.

Iron Hands - the MMs don't have the technical aptitude so I think this rules out the IHs and their successors.

Finally I just don't see the MMs as being a successor of the Imperial Fists. The Sons of Dorn simply have a radically different mindset.

The Traitor Legions:

Emperors Children - no similarities at all so I can't see them being a loyalist remnant.

Iron Warriors - the MMs don't seem to have the technical skills (as we see they don't seem to be able to repair their broken armour) so this seemingly would rule out the Iron Warriors.

Night Lords - Another prime contender. We've seen the pre heresy attitudes of the Night Lords towards both each other and humanity in general. We've never been given a description of a MM Marine without his helmet so we can't be certain if they have the pale skin etc of the Night Lords but the MMs seem to share their modus operandi.

World Eaters - These had me thinking. Pre butcher's nails could be a possibility but the likelihood of a loyalist remnant of the WE who don't have the nails (since there is no indication of the MMs having any form of the nails) is very small so I've had to rule them out.

Death Guard - It's possible that the MMs are a loyalist remnant of the DG. The DG cared little for collateral damage and got the job done using whatever means necessary. For me they are a maybe.

Thousand Sons - Absolutely not - no indication of psykers in the MMs.

Sons of Horus - Like the Death Guard there is a possibility the MMs are a loyalist remnant but their modus operandi isn't that similar. Again it's a maybe but less than the DG in my opinion.

Word Bearers - Absolutely not - we know that all loyalists were purged.

Alpha Legion - Who knows?? It's possible I suppose but the MMs modus operandi is very different to what little information is known about the AL. Then again if loyalist AL were trying to hide within the Imperium post Heresy then what better way to hide than to take on a mantle different to that of the original Legion. Over time their attitudes may have changed sufficiently to become that which they initially were only pretending to be. As with anything connected to the AL it's a maybe but we'll never know.

Going simply from the MM's modus operandi I can only see them being from 1 of 4 sources with the most likely (in my opinion) first :

Night Lords loyalists - the MMs share the NLs way of thinking.

Raven Guard via the Nomad Predation Fleet route

Death Guard loyalists

Alpha Legion loyalists
 

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Night Lords - Another prime contender. We've seen the pre heresy attitudes of the Night Lords towards both each other and humanity in general. We've never been given a description of a MM Marine without his helmet so we can't be certain if they have the pale skin etc of the Night Lords but the MMs seem to share their modus operandi.
The timing of this discussion and the new NL short on the BL blog might almost seem deliberate. The quote below stood out for me, and it could apply equally well to the MM by the looks of it, so I think if they were a successor to a traitor legion, the NLs would be the most likely.

It was said by many Imperial commanders that they didn’t work well with others, but the truth was a little more amusingly bleak.

The Night Lords scarcely worked well with each other.
 

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Excellent post, zerachiel.

Using the logic played out in your post, my own personal take would be to follow that of the Raven Guard nomad slant. :good:
 

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I like the Night Lords successor angle, but this could also be BL setting up a chapter for Heresy? The angle they're taking with the WH universe gives me the sense they're finally getting the gumption up to evolve their storylines.
 

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The Ultramarines are probably a high posibilty considering how many chapters they are responsible for creating.

Salamanders and Wolves are highly unlikely, just due to the fact that Wolves haven't been able to make any chapters off Fenris and the Salamanders can't even keep a full strength chapter. And your right about the Blood Angels just being way to off to not notice genetic similarities.

I'm afraid I don't have any fluff about the Marines Malevolent, however if they have had any gene inefficiencies, it's possible they are from the Imperial Fists lineage. I'd be careful though about relating chapters to certain traits. The Imperial Fists successors are interestingly different, even when talking about the 3 main second founding. I would apply that to any chapter investigation really.

The Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines are considered the best genetic templates based off old White Dwarf articles and dare say codexes. So that would narrow it down a bit.

The Raven's though are a wild card. I have seriously never followed a successor chapter of theirs which is amazing, considering they should have a nice series from the Istvaan Survivors and help from the Emperor.
 

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They havent been described as having pasty faces. So unlikely to be Ravenguard successors, as their successors share the pasty face trait.

Edit:
The Dark Angels and their successors have always been very close knit, due to their shared secret. My bet is that they are an unremarkable ultramarines successor, that have severely deviated from their origin.

If they are an M32 founding, it stands to reason that they potentially could have come from a troublesome or rebellious chapter of the UMs that got let lose to get out of the hair of the UMs. Getting a chapter on the condition that they never bother their sire again.
 

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They havent been described as having pasty faces. So unlikely to be Ravenguard successors, as their successors share the pasty face trait.
But they haven't been described without helmets at all have they?
 

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From In the depths of hades:
Vinyar turned and saw a third warrior standing by Sergeant Tuurok. Like the other Malevolents he was clad in bile-yellow and coal-black armour and moved with a predatory grace. His helmet was loosely attached to his belt, not mag-locked but held by a strap of leather. Though still battered, some of his battleplate looked more robust than the rest, as if it were an amalgam and not a concomitant suit. Scraped paint revealed some of the nature of who it had been taken from – black with a white templar cross. He wore his hammer strapped diagonally across his back – its haft jutted out above his left shoulder guard, the head visible just past his right hip. He looked battle-worn but vital, and was less scarred than Vinyar. Shoulder-length, pearl-white hair framed his face, giving the warrior a pseudo-angelic cast, but there was hate enough in his dark eyes to drown nations.
 

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No mention of skin tone though :)
 

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I think of the Marines Malevolent like the original Star Trek episode "Mirror, Mirror." They all have goatees and are mostly bad people. They are the opposite of the mostly altruistic space marines from the regular universe. They're petty, backstabbing, and power hungry. They have jobs to do but also have to watch out for their comrades coming after them.
 

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He wore his hammer strapped diagonally across his back – its haft jutted out above his left shoulder guard, the head visible just past his right hip.
Off topic, but I always find it odd when it's mentioned that Astartes characters sling their weapons like this. Do the writers forget about the rather massive power packs on their backs? Look to the models alone, pick one up if you have one lying around and then get a melee weapon, or any weapons for that matter, or something of the appropriate size, and place it against the backpack. It just doesn't work, it would be the most awkward way possible to reach for a weapon.


On topic. I wouldn't rule out the Ultramarines, there are so, so many of them that I wouldn't doubt that they could have some rather extreme variation in some cases. As for the Imperial Fists, the Templars and Crimson Fists are quite different from their founding Legion as well, so they can't be entirely ruled out either.
 

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I blame that one on a Kyme'ism. Its after all him who have written nearly all Marines Malevolent stuff. But however, that reminded me of a final book to check and I found a mention!

Page 90 of Salamander. Two platinum service studs were drilled into the Marine Malevolent sergeant's skull. His skin was dark and rugged as if the centuries of battlefield dirt and enemy blood was ingrained in it.

Edit:
Given the general lack of mention of their skin tone, and this one, I think its safe to say that they are not a Ravenguard successor. As all their known successors have had very strong indications of their inherited traits of white skin and black hair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I blame that one on a Kyme'ism. Its after all him who have written nearly all Marines Malevolent stuff. But however, that reminded me of a final book to check and I found a mention!

Page 90 of Salamander. Two platinum service studs were drilled into the Marine Malevolent sergeant's skull. His skin was dark and rugged as if the centuries of battlefield dirt and enemy blood was ingrained in it.

Edit:
Given the general lack of mention of their skin tone, and this one, I think its safe to say that they are not a Ravenguard successor. As all their known successors have had very strong indications of their inherited traits of white skin and black hair.
Good find, well I guess that rules out both the Raven Guard and Night Lords. I suppose they could be a weird Ultramarine offshoot. It's also known that the Salamanders only have black onyx like skin due to the radiation on Nocturne. Could it be possible that the MMs are descended from a hitherto unknown remnant of the Salamanders who went a bit insane after Istvaan V in the same way that some of the Iron Hands were described as going insane.

Could this be what Nick Kyme is hinting at with all the bad feeling between the Salamanders and the MMs. Could the MMs be the wicked disowned sons of the Salamanders?
 

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I think he mainly wanted to portray some of the darker sides of the astartes, a chapter that have forgotten their humanity. A quite jarring contrast to the humanist Salamanders.

However, that reminds me of something. The Salamanders had such a low number after the Horus Heresy that they took no part in the Second Founding, which is mentioned in the Salamander novel as well, page 131. So they cannot be the sires of the MMs, as they were about in M32.
 

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However, that reminds me of something. The Salamanders had such a low number after the Horus Heresy that they took no part in the Second Founding, which is mentioned in the Salamander novel as well, page 131. So they cannot be the sires of the MMs, as they were about in M32.
This would be a good point, but the seconomy founding occurred during M31, the Marines Malevolent are a third founding chapter.
 

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Point. But according to wiki the third founding only lists Flesh Eaters and Executioners at the very beginning of M32. But I can see the MMs are listed as an unstated founding in M32.

But the MMs is described as never having seen a marine with a melanchromic defect before, upon their initial meeting with the Salamanders. Appearing very suprised at the sight of the unhelmed salamanders, to the point of almost drawing weapons.
 
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