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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Since vanilla chaos marines are a sad bunch of losers, i'd like to give them some rules to make them at least interesting.

Chaos Marines entry in the codex has: " If the unit is comprised by 15 or 20 models, respectively one and two models may take items from the Special weapons, Heavy weapons or Melee Weapons equipment list."


Any Infantry (no Jump Infantry) model in Power armour from codex: Chaos Space Marines gets the following rules:

Warbands of Chaos:
Life in a chaos marine warband is a rough affair: only the meanest and most cunning Marine becomes the band leader and Champion. The others can only wait for the moment of his demise...

When you remove the Aspiring Champion as a casualty, you may have the unit take D3 Str. 4 AP – hits, representing infights for power.
Fearless units take D3-1 hits instead (up to a minimum of 0 )
Then, before the following movement phase begins, replace a model of your chosing from the unit with an Aspiring Champion, equipped as per Codex entry.

These rules will stay. I think they hit a sweet spot.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These rules are superseded, due to lack of impact and usefulness

Blades, spikes and horns:
Chaos marines rarely wear smooth and codex-abiding power armours; instead they sport cruel blades, spikes and horns, and use such things as improvised weapons in hand to hand fighting.


If the unit makes a successful charge, the unit can, in the following combat sub-phase reroll up to a number of To Wound rolls equal to half (rounded down) the distance of the charge, before modifiers. (So if you rolled a successfull charge of 7", you may reroll 3 to wound rolls during the following combat)

Chosen units also get the following special rule:


Favour of the Gods:
Favour from the Gods is fickle at best, but is always found into the bloodiest fights.

If a unit is marked to a specific god and at the beginning of the battle is comprised by a number of models equal to the god's sacred number (Slaanesh 6, Khorne 7, Nurgle 8, Tzeentch 9), then the unit's Champion automatically pass any Look out sir roll and, until the unit has a champion, it may reroll any Morale test (even successfull ones, you might want to flee...sometimes.)
If a unit is unmarked, then the ability applies if the number of models at the beginning of the battle is 5 or 10.

SO, what do you guys think?

P.S. Sorry for my bad english. Is everything clear enough??
 

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JUGGERNUT
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I like the rules very much. Nothing overpowered and yet helps us out in the poor leadership department. The only correction I'd make is in the "Favour of the Gods" section where I think you meant "until the champion is killed" instead of "until the champion is alive."
 

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Rattlehead
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Spiky armour is going to be an arse to remember for no real benefit (some Str4 HoW hits a small percentage of the time is something nobody really cares about). Warbands of Chaos is pretty cool. Favour of the Gods doesn't make Chosen attractive enough to make me want to bring Chosen as anything other than a special weapons squad, and doesn't help Morale checks which is one of CSM's big problems.

To make regular CSMs better, I'd simply replace Veterans of the Long War with flat Fearless for a 2pt upgrade.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks guys, i'm going to answer in detail later :)
meanwhile i've fixed the dead-alive issue
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Hi people, firsto of all, thanks for the interest :)
Then, i agree with @MidnightSun : spikey armourz rule is hard to happen and Favour of the gods is just not compelling enough. proposed modifications:

Favour of the Gods:
Favour from the Gods is fickle at best, but is always found into the bloodiest fights.

If a unit is marked to a specific god and at the beginning of the battle is comprised by a number of models equal to the god's sacred number (Slaanesh 6, Khorne 7, Nurgle 8, Tzeentch 9), then the unit's Champion automatically pass any Look out sir roll and, until the unit has a champion, it may reroll any Morale test (even successfull ones, you might want to flee...sometimes.)
If a unit is unmarked, then the ability applies if the number of models at the beginning of the battle is 5 or 10.



Blades, spikes and horns:
Chaos marines rarely wear smooth and codex-abiding power armours; instead they sport cruel blades, spikes and horns, and use such things as improvised weapons in hand to hand fighting.

If the unit makes a successful charge, the unit can reroll a number of To Wound rolls equal to half (rounded down) the distance of charge, before modifiers.


About a flat Fearless..no thanks, i'm not aiming to upping the stakes, just to make them viable. If a 2pts per model can make my army fearless... well, there's no point into taking vanilla marines anymore. Suddenly, everyone is fearless...
 

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Why not make some kind of legion tactics? For example in an Alpha Legion army all CSM and chosen units can infiltrate. Night Lords CSM and chosen reduce enemy leadership by 1 if in base contact and cause fear. Iron Warriors CSM and chosen gain tank hunters etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
well, that would require some more thinking... at the moment i'm just thinkering with simple generic stuff.
But i'll definitely do something like that at some point :)
 

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I like all those ideas. For rules specific to the former Legions, though, I think that formations are the way to go within the current system. Something like, for instance :

Alpha Legion Operative Cell

1-2 HQ
1 Cultist troop unit
0-3 Troops
1 unit of Chosen
0-2 Elites
0-3 Fast Attack
0-3 Heavy Support

Masters of Deception

- May be set up from CSM Codex or supplements
- Chosen units have the Infiltrators rule
- If the Warlord is a HQ of this detachment, every Allied detachment is considered as Allies of Convenience
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hey, cool ideas!
I'm opening a new thread over the Legion Rules :)
 

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Rattlehead
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About a flat Fearless..no thanks, i'm not aiming to upping the stakes, just to make them viable. If a 2pts per model can make my army fearless... well, there's no point into taking vanilla marines anymore. Suddenly, everyone is fearless...
I don't think it's incredibly powerful since Cultists can't get it, and CSM have no other real tarpit units (anything 20 CSM aren't winning against in combat is something that's going to mulch them in short order fearless or no, and you can already give large units Fearless by attaching a Lord in the current book).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
We should also remove the Banner of Vengeance, then... moreover, it's since 1992 that chaos marines are breakable unlike their loyalist brethren, i'd rather not change that, it's also more fluffy like this!
Honestly, with the banner there, (sure, killable and sniping will remove it)i don't feel the urge to give a flat buyable option to become fearless. Rather, we could revamp the Veteran of The Long War and say: "VoTLW models have Hatred (space marines) and reroll failed morale tests". There we go, far more better imo.
 

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JUGGERNUT
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Not necessarily something you need to implement, but lately I've been thinking that Hit & Run should become an army-wide rule for all CSM units in power armor who are not fearless.

They can still break and fail leadership tests just as easily, but this rule represents the fact that they're not fucking cowards but instead they fight like raiders who know when to strike and when to back off so their hard-hitting backup can do the real work. They know they aren't as easily replaced as an Astartes, and they fight like it. Let the cultists die in droves, not the 10,000 year old veterans of the long war.

No, it should not make them any more expensive. They still have to pay for marks and wargear, and good old White Scars get the rule for free on top of all their other nonsense.
 

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What would be really interesting is CSM units having the same wargear selection as chosen. Why are they limited to one or two special weapons per squad? Are they following the Codex Astartes or do they not have the means to produce/steal flamers and melta guns? I'd love to be able to give my CSM troops a bunch of flamers, melta guns, plasma guns or power weapons- it wouldn't go against fluff and would give the basic chaos marine a genuine strength versus their loyalist counterparts
 

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Rattlehead
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Not necessarily something you need to implement, but lately I've been thinking that Hit & Run should become an army-wide rule for all CSM units in power armor who are not fearless.

They can still break and fail leadership tests just as easily, but this rule represents the fact that they're not fucking cowards but instead they fight like raiders who know when to strike and when to back off so their hard-hitting backup can do the real work. They know they aren't as easily replaced as an Astartes, and they fight like it. Let the cultists die in droves, not the 10,000 year old veterans of the long war.

No, it should not make them any more expensive. They still have to pay for marks and wargear, and good old White Scars get the rule for free on top of all their other nonsense.
That still leaves them as shittier White Scars in a lot of ways though, plus not really making sense for some units like Terminators. I think it's a good concept, but I'd represent it through CSM being able to choose to fail Morale checks that they pass on the 2D6 roll and auto-rally if they do a la ATSKNF (to stop Sweeping Advance). Traitor marines probably aren't going to run from a fight that they're not actually losing (generally speaking, of course) which is often the main use of Hit and Run, but they wouldn't hesitate to fall back when they feel resistance is too strong (hence why they can fail morale). Wording something like this:

Veterans of the Long War: Whenever a unit with this special rule passes a morale check, it may choose to count as having failed that morale check. If they do so, they gain the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule until the end of their next Movement Phase.

That gives them a powerful rule that's also unique to CSM rather than trying to emulate Space Marines and not doing too well at it.
 

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What would be really interesting is CSM units having the same wargear selection as chosen. Why are they limited to one or two special weapons per squad? Are they following the Codex Astartes or do they not have the means to produce/steal flamers and melta guns? I'd love to be able to give my CSM troops a bunch of flamers, melta guns, plasma guns or power weapons- it wouldn't go against fluff and would give the basic chaos marine a genuine strength versus their loyalist counterparts
This is somehow already possible while using the Black Légion supplement and picking up Chosen as Troops, no ?

Regarding melee, aren't Csm better than Loyalists, with a second melee weapon and a Mark (except Tz) or IoV ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That still leaves them as shittier White Scars in a lot of ways though, plus not really making sense for some units like Terminators. I think it's a good concept, but I'd represent it through CSM being able to choose to fail Morale checks that they pass on the 2D6 roll and auto-rally if they do a la ATSKNF (to stop Sweeping Advance). Traitor marines probably aren't going to run from a fight that they're not actually losing (generally speaking, of course) which is often the main use of Hit and Run, but they wouldn't hesitate to fall back when they feel resistance is too strong (hence why they can fail morale). Wording something like this:

Veterans of the Long War: Whenever a unit with this special rule passes a morale check, it may choose to count as having failed that morale check. If they do so, they gain the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule until the end of their next Movement Phase.

That gives them a powerful rule that's also unique to CSM rather than trying to emulate Space Marines and not doing too well at it.
Great stuff midnight! I agree.

After a couple of tests, i can say that the only real useful rule was "Warbands of Chaos".

I'm sticking with that one.
Then i really like the MidnigSun idea. SO i would add this to Marines, chosens, havocs and raptors:

"Backstabbers, not Heroes": a unit with at least a model with this rule can decide to fail Morale tests. If they do so while engaged in melee, the enemy can only consolidate and the fleeing unit automatically regroups at the beginning of the next turn.

Also considering really hard the VoTL change posted above.
 

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Regarding melee, aren't Csm better than Loyalists, with a second melee weapon and a Mark (except Tz) or IoV ?
They can be waaay better in melee than Loyalists, yeah, it's just that their leadership and mobility problems combined with how while they're better than loyalists at melee, they're still not going to beat melee units, means that it's not a huge consolation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yeah I like the sound of that, too. Hit & Run as an upgrade for certain units would still be cool, though, as would a superior close combat unit, but those are separate issues.
i think 3rd ed style veteran abilities for chosens would fix that ;)
 

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This is somehow already possible while using the Black Légion supplement and picking up Chosen as Troops, no ?

Regarding melee, aren't Csm better than Loyalists, with a second melee weapon and a Mark (except Tz) or IoV ?
Good point. I thought of that after making the post, but for me it just wouldn't be worth putting VotLW on everything and paying extra points for chosen. I figured out it would be so expensive to do I'd have to remove more than one unit from my army to achieve it, so may as well just take some havocs with four meltaguns in a rhino.

I like that the option exists anyway.

CSM squads can be better than tacticals in combat. The option to take a bolter and BP/CCW is quite appealing- I like the idea of ten guys in a rhino who can disembark and shoot their bolters, then shoot bolters for overwatch but still get the extra attack in combat for having two CCWs. For fluff I love the idea, it's just modelling them that puts me off a bit. I'm not sure how I'd do it without it looking a bit inelegant :scratchhead:
 
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