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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok I need a LOW model count army that does well wins like 50/50 or slightly better so far I am hooked on Ogres are ther any others?
I paint like crap and have little time so Ogres seemed like a perfect fit max models like 50 ogres and thats a big army.
Wow it still seems like Ogres are perfect for me. I am just worried that they are the Imperial Guard of fantasy "You know the joke the only way a Guard army will win a battle is if its playing another guard army."
 

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Wow, outdated views on IG, but whatever, on to the root of this.

If you want something that you can win with pretty easy, then Ogres probably aren't the answer. Warriors of Chaos, some Lizzie builds, and Dark or High Elves are all races with relatively low model count and a good chance of winning. Anything more specific here?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It is probably between Ogres/VC or WOC.
Ogres: fear,stomp,they are BIG

WOC: hand to hand monsters

V/C: Crypt ghouls with 2 attacks each and poison with enough spells to make them kill almost anything if I take 4 vamps with Lore of light.
 

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Warriors of Chaos can do Ogres better than Ogres can do Ogres, in a way.

Take Throgg, and Trolls, and you've got an army with 4+ Regen and basic S5. However, they ARE Initiative 1, though, so suffer from Sun-itis, Pit-itis, Dweller-itis, etc even more than Ogres.

There's a discussion around about Kholek and how good he is - at the minute, for a monster army, I'm in Favour of Galrauch, with his Flight, Magic, I6, and 3 Breath Weapons, although he lacks the straight up hitting power of Kholek, although Kholek pretty much dominates challenges and monsters, unless your opponent has a S6+ Double/D3/D6 wounding weapon.

VC have large model counts, unless you max out Blood Dragons Wights and Characters. Even so, in a 2000 point army, 500pts of Crypt Ghouls is still 62 Ghouls, compared to 11 Trolls.



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When looking for such an army I'd also say WoC or High Elves.

WoC can be used in any way, warriors, knights, trolls, dragon ogres, etc. Your choice of models and how many you actually want to paint. They are indeed combat monsters but lack the shooting, something I think outweighs from time to time, untill you reach their line that is. For painting, you can keep your warriors simple but when marking them and having them WYSIWYG you might have to try out on some color schemes on a model or two. How to capture the blood in Khorne armour or how to have Nurgle as filthy, but still good-looking, as possible.


High Elves, I actually spit on their name, you thought they were hard with ASF well now they mostly have a re-roll to hit against you. They can do great combat with ASF,re-roll to hit great weapons (no ASF and ASL do not cancel eachother out here, High Elf special rule), 4 rank fighting spearmen or lothern seaguard, the ability to place good shooting units and top mages. High Elves are quite an opponent but their low-model count is their weakness, but you can work your way around that. For painting, High Elves have white, blue and metal colors, making them quite easy and simple to paint after a white undercoat. Some hair, flesh, weapons and armour and clothing and they're ready to go.

VC is a possibility with Blood knights, wights and so on. But I find such lists sometimes lacking to much, you have ghouls, use them. And you want your ressurection spells. VC is mostly to many models so I wouldn't suggest it.
 

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True, but personally, I like Khorne more bloody and Nurgle more filthy. And honestly, I find it quite lame (no offense intended) when you just paint them metallic or black and then say they are marked and blessed but that it's not visible. While actually they wear their blessings in the open as a sign of pride and decorate their armour with things referring to their patron god. You don't have to do 4-5 layers paint of different colouring to go from dark to light, one layer can be enough but then it's also personal choice.
 

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Beastmen can be a low model count army too if you go for Minotaurs and Chariots. :p
 

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There are quite a few armies that can be built with few models. most elves have some form of elite build that have few models.
Dwarfs can be built artillery and character heavy with few small units to make it legal.
empire can do the same but will inevitably have more to paint than the dwarves unless you use lots of cavalry.
the armies that don't really have a true elite build are Skaven and [email protected] as their stuff is to cheap.
 

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True, but personally, I like Khorne more bloody and Nurgle more filthy. And honestly, I find it quite lame (no offense intended) when you just paint them metallic or black and then say they are marked and blessed but that it's not visible. While actually they wear their blessings in the open as a sign of pride and decorate their armour with things referring to their patron god. You don't have to do 4-5 layers paint of different colouring to go from dark to light, one layer can be enough but then it's also personal choice.
I know it's a bit off topic, but - http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=593551&postcount=293

Also, saying (no offence) is not a get out jail free card if you say something's lame. I couldn't say Hey, ****** (no offence), or whatever. Just remember that.



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I've never really played fantasy so I don't know much but I have been wanting to get into it. So I've been looking through all the army books alot and making little lists and such because I kind of want the same thing you do with low model counts and all.

It seems somewhat possible to do with every army. Of course it seems like some do it better than others, but I've always kind of thought that if you learn your army well enough and play a big enough variety of games winning 50/50 would be possible with almost any army you like. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, pick the army you like the best! Cliche I know, but take it a step further and don't just pick an army you like the best, pick an army that you like it's bigger/more elite units best, if this is the type of list you are wanting to do.

Ogres are the most obvious choice I think when you want a low model count. The general impression I get from what I've read around is that they're not the army to pick if you want to win. Though I have read many things that say they have actually gotten a little better in 8th edition. And I've also read plenty of success stories about them so it seems to me if you are wanting to be a 50/50 winner you could probably do it with Ogres unless you go to nothing but hardcore tournaments and such.

Another that seems easy to do it with that might actually be able to do fairly well would be Dark Elves. Everyone else has already mentioned the potential of all the elves to do it. I wanted to use them because I wanted to fill my core up with dark riders with crossbows... Like I said I havn't played fantasy yet but seems like fast calvary with bows would be fun to use...and obviously would be less models in the core section. Though I've heard calvary in general has been kind of nerfed in 8th but I'm not too sure.

I've really noticed, in general, that most armies have the option of doing some type of cavalry unit as the core option. This might not be the best choice in the game but it definitely makes it possible to drop your model count by a bunch if you are taking 5-10 mounted models as core instead of 20+ on foot.

Well...there's my inexperienced take on the matter, but I'm in the same boat as you so I thought I'd mention my findings so far. I think ultimately I'm going to choose Lizardmen myself. Mostly to try and get as much stegadons as I can! Good Luck with your choice!
 

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Warriors of Chaos can do Ogres better than Ogres can do Ogres, in a way.

Take Throgg, and Trolls, and you've got an army with 4+ Regen and basic S5. However, they ARE Initiative 1, though, so suffer from Sun-itis, Pit-itis, Dweller-itis, etc even more than Ogres.

There's a discussion around about Kholek and how good he is - at the minute, for a monster army, I'm in Favour of Galrauch, with his Flight, Magic, I6, and 3 Breath Weapons, although he lacks the straight up hitting power of Kholek, although Kholek pretty much dominates challenges and monsters, unless your opponent has a S6+ Double/D3/D6 wounding weapon.

VC have large model counts, unless you max out Blood Dragons Wights and Characters. Even so, in a 2000 point army, 500pts of Crypt Ghouls is still 62 Ghouls, compared to 11 Trolls.

Purple sun and pit of shades will hurt them, however dwellers below won't, as it's a strength test and trolls are strength 5...

For shits and giggles just pack a doom totem, anyone with a lord level mage will run screaming like a girl :D
 

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I would agree that WoC troll army is better then an ogre army. Trolls have their regen, chaos ogres swap bull charge (an impact hit) for being able to take chaos armour (I cant say how much I hate that they get a 4+ armour save), they get access to some great spells both through the WoC spells and access to some of the new rulebook lores and then you can be backed up by a hellcannon (which really puts scraplaunchers to shame).

Ogres are a fun army, which is potentially lethal... but easily beatable by the right player/army. WoC can make a very nasty "ogre" style army which has some of the same flaws (low 'I' means pit of shades and purple sun still end your army in 1-2 castings) but
 

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I've seen several knight heavy (or sole) lists out in 8th... but they all have the same issue: they lack numbers of attacks. This means they are very easy to tarpit. The very worst case of this was when 2 units of knights (I dont know the differences, Ive never actually played them- my local players always use their 'strong' armies to play me) were attacking a zombie hoard... and a single Lv3 vampire could raise more zombies then were lost each turn. I saw about 4 turns of the game and it was dull as anything. The zombies were blocking the rest of the VC army from getting in and all the VC magic went into raising. VC were winning slowly because one unit of the knights was right next to a haunted mansion.
- so to my point: brets can be good, but tend to like small, elite units over the hoard of poor quality stuff that more and more people are taking. So the evolution of the meta with 8th is working to the weaknesses of brets.
 

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Yup it's the Inability to break things on the charge which kills them along with the poor initiative. Consider Knights of the Realm they're your basic heavy knight, a unit of 12 will set you back just over 320 points. On the Charge in Lance formation that's 11 S5 attacks at W4 and 9 S3 WS3 attacks, sadly at I3 so striking after or at the same time as most things. But that's not a bad attack. Assuming you actually hang in combat and you make your Combat reform to 6 Wide. Then you can have a might 18 attacks at S3 (WS4/3). Yes you have 2+ armour but T3 means you will have a lot of wounds to save.

The block of 50 MaA is a good 70 pts cheap and would massacre the knights in combat, not only are they S4 all the time but they have plenty of ranks to play with. On the Charge Knights will kill 7 of them, in return, assuming not in a horde, the MaA will kill one Knight. After that the Lance formation will wear off and they have to reform, meaning they get shafted by static combat resolution. Assuming all 12 Knight survive they can kill 3 Peasants a turn to their 1 Knight, then static res kicks in and the knights lose by 1 or 2.

The Elite Knight army is just too expensive now. You don;t get the same bang for your buck out of your Knight as they will get bogged down in anything bigger than a trivial unit.

Aramoro
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I am going to play Ogres.......I simply love the huge figures now I might make a Chaos army comprised of Ogres and Trolls "I don't know what that list looks like yet",and a Ogre Kingdoms Ogre list and hope that when the new book comes out that it will include armour for Ogres or a thicker skin for saves or somthing like that.
But I am starting to buy Ogres and trolls which Chaos book has Ogres WOC or DOC?
 

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I think that the new ogre book will be one of 2 things. 1- complete garbage, just more of the same, leaving them just as vulnerable to some spellswithout making them special (sad that a WoC 'ogre' army is currently better then an ogre 'ogre' army) or 2- utterly immense.

Im hoping for T5 ogres standard, but if they dont do that then a reduction in model cost or addition of armour (kinda doubt armour) would be almost certain. Certain models are massively overcosted currently, none more so then maneaters (almost double the points of an irongut to give it the same equipment and you get stubborn and +1WS, +1S, +1I +1A but have to live with ItP (which is a big downside in a small flanking unit). The worst thing is that they are no harder to kill... so all their upgrades tend to go for nothing as most cometent opponents will just get their archers/mages to obliterate them long before they become dangerous (30pts per wound with only T4 5+AS... if anyone can think of a quicker way to lose points against S3 shooting I would love to hear it).

I think that ogre magic may well be astonishing. They've always been different but while I think gutmagic might be quite fun I think its dispelling that ogres really need a change with, and lets face it, their fluff gives them an incredible source for if GW wanted to play around with magic. Could have them like the opposite dwarves- having no dispel dice but a chance (depending on butcher/slaughtermaster numbers) or letting the magic be "eaten" by the essence of the great maw. Somethying like roll a dice per magic user per spell: on a 6 for butchers or 5+ for slaughtermasters the spell is gone (but roll a 1 and something bad happens as the maw consumes part of the butcher/slaughtermaster).
So long as its cool and in-keeping with ogre fluff then my love of ogres will be maintained (currently its waivering slightly after some run ins with 8th ed HE).
 

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I'd like to see an Ogre Bloodgreed style regeneration. If they win a combat and restrain pursuit, they regain all wounds lost while actually in that combat (revived by the smell of fresh meat), up to a total number of wounds they cause.

I.e, they charge, and suffer 7 wounds, killing 2 ogres, and wounding another. In return, 5 opponents are killed, but due to some random Vagaries, etc, the opponents lose - and flee. Restraining pursuit, you restore 5 wounds - 1 on the wounded ogre, 1 fully reborn ogre, and 1 reborn ogre with 1 wound.

Bit wordy, but could make them a bit nastier. But yes, cost reduction would be very nice.

For example, to benefit from Horde, Ogres have to have 18 models - 3 ranks of 6, which is nearly 650points, I think. 650points of anything else will pretty much walk through Ogres in some way or manner - I'm thinking Crypt Ghouls, Warriors of Chaos and Lizards here, but the same thing applies to the lesser combat races - DElves, etc.



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