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Discussion Starter #1
From what I have read in the 8th edition rulebook, it says it overrides all army books concerning army composition/selection. So the only requirements on heroes and lords are 25% or less of each. I just played a 2250 game against a O&G player who had 3 savage orc warbosses and 8 goblin shamans who basically shut down my slaan and hit my army really hard. Is there anything against this anyone can find? Or is it now just playing a game with a lot of cheap spam characters?
 

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8 shamen aren't much more effective than 4, or 2. With the cap of 12 dice in the dispell pool, him not possibly getting that many without rolling a lot of sixes or having items that up how many dice he has... I don't see how he shut down the slann all that well, especially if you give your slann the right upgrades.
 

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The warbosses might be quite nasty... but the 8 shamen is just giving you points, and guarenteeing that he is going to have someone to cast his spells. 8 Shamen are really just giving him an extra 1 PD/DD a turn, and with so many on the table he'll struggle to keep them all safe.
I dont even think that he can spam dispel scrolls anymore since they are just basic arcane items in the new BRB as far as I could see... so you can only have 1 per wizard and I dont think you can take more then 1 per army (although there are about 4 types of scroll now).

Certainly if you were just playing 7th ed with the 25% limits instead of the organisation from the army books then spam mages is very effective.
 

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I'd be more worried if he started to spam gobbo champions as there are so many annoying 1 trick items that can screw over an army in the orc @ gobbo book but they've been limited before by the character cap.
Has anyone noticed yet that in one of the missions you can autolose without setting up a model, A skirmish woodelf list rarely has banners nor does my ogre list but one of the missions requires you to have at least 3 or you lose.
 

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I don't see how the 8 mages shut down the slann.

Your slann is level 4, with an average of 7 power dice in the pool before items.

Assuming you use 2D6 to cast, it gives you an average casting roll of 11 (which is enough to get all your spells off)

So you can cast 3x Difficulty 11 spells and maybe also get off a level 7-8ish spell as well with your final dice.

He gets to dispel them using 2 dice +1, which is 8 average. So unless he rolls very well or uses 3 dice to dispel (and therefore only dispels 2 of your 4 spells... assuming he had the maximum number of Dispel dice, which he probably won't) you're going to get on average 2 completely unobstructed spells off, with a chance at a third.

Admittedly, you'll have a similar amount of magic coming back at you - but their average casting roll on 2D6 is 8, compared to your average dispel roll of 11 on 2D6.

For the spam caster army to work, you need to spend a lot of points on items that give you extra power/dispel dice, otherwise all you're doing with 8 shamans is getting a lot of redundency (and flexibility, if you take lots of different lores), and not much outright power.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
From your responses and from playing a few more games it seems like the spam wizards are only good if they roll a lot of dice through luck. Some other things i have found however that really tip the magic phase one sided are vilich and a lot of vampires with master of the black arts. With vilich you can basically get your dice replenished by the opponents dispel dice so you can use way more than twelve. I saw a vampire player have 3 wizards with motba roll snake eyes for the pool. so his opponent had 1 dispel to his 8 power (without channeling). I'm gonna have to rethink my magic strategies with lizardmen because what I have tried doesn't seem to be working
 

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I'm sure you'll figure something out.
 

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Spamming Shamen with the O&G book in the new ed isn't going to be two effective. However Goblin hero's on the other hand are going to be very effective. You could field a squad of wolf rider bosses :laugh:

Skar
 

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Vilich is a pain, but not a gamewinner- he just means that you have to take Yoda's advice: "do or do not, there is no try" :p
Just make sure you overcast spells and only roll dispel at what you can get rid of... it means you're limitted to the numbers of spells and dispells you can make but really really annoys the WoC player.

Master of the black arts is very very nasty.. but I dont think it'll be as bad as a HE army can be. Teclis, banner of sorcery and a mage with jewel of the dusk... thats 2D6+2D3+1 powerdice (averaging 12, so should normally have the full amount) and an extra D3 dispel. I dont really think you need the normal mage at all but it is funny to add it in.
Worse still is what Teclis can do with 12 PD- Pick the nastiest 2 spells from whatever lore you gave him, cast them at the highest power level they have and roll 6 dice for each of them- Teclis gives irrisitable force on any double other then 1 (which on 6D6 is almost a certainty) and if you do roll a double 6 he ignores the first miscast result each turn.... since the most powerful spells from each of the lores are devastating being able to get them cast irrisistably without worrying about miscasts is stupidly powerful.
 

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Yeah, that'll be nasty... if the slaan knew as many spells as something like Kairos then it would be truly terrifying.
 

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If you want to spend the points (100), he can know all of one law AND re-roll miscasts, as well as adding a bonus Power Dice.

Or, replace the re-roll miscast with a one use item that ignore miscasts on a 2+ and bounces it onto an enemy wizard. Hehe.

In fact, here's the Slann I'd run:

Slann w/ Focus of Mystery, The Focused Ruination, Curse-charm of Tepok and Cupped Hands of the Old One. Cost? 390 points.

Rolls an extra dice for each spell, knows all the spells from a single law, has a once-use item to bounce a miscast onto an enemy on a 2+ and another one-use item that can force an opponent to re-roll a roll on the miscast table.
 

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cupped hands is an evil evil upgrade... but comically the 3 times my friend has tried to use it when I've seen (twice vs me) he's rolled the 1 :p

I think the really nasty army to play could well be DE- have a couple of DE sorceress's around and if the opponent runs out of dispel dice then suddenly you can 1 dice spam their gain dice spell on roles of 3+ (thanks to the addition of their lv). Suddenly giving you a 2nd wind that the opponent cant do anything about.
 

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I think that the percentages have really only affected some of the armies like Orcs and Goblins, Vampires, and other Horde armies. Armies like Warriors of Chaos, Dwarves, Daemons and Lizardmen are going to still be using the same amount of charachter (face it, spamin skink cheifs isnt really that great.) When you're playing an army with expensive charchter you're hardly going to be able to fit 5 charachters into 2000pts let alone 10+ like O&C can. I think this actually somewhat balances it because the armies that have characters with higher point costs normally have better core infantry, for example Saurus or Chaos Warriors will give a beating to most goblin units but with a character in there I think it somewhat levels the playing field.
 

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Have to say I like the % split now- it means that some units which previsouly I wouldnt ever take can now fit into my armies, especially in the hero slots since I dont need as manay mages as I ran in 7th to up my magic potential over and abover the dispel of the enemy (although any items that steal PD or just boost DD are evil). Suddenly Im finding that I want to run those choices in my army books I was shying away from- BSBs, dragon mages, gorgers, maneaters and random combat heroes ("calling Caradryan...").
I still think I prefer 7th but the changes are certainly refreshing...
 
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