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Discussion Starter #1
Well, considering how well received my Slann Lore of Magic Tactica was, I thought I’d write up another for the Lizardmen. In the aforementioned tactica, I alluded to the two biggest arguments that occur between Lizardmen players- the first being which lore of magic to give your Slann, and the second being which of the two hunting packs to take- Salamanders vs Razordons.

Now, if you spend much time on the internet, you’ll find that the majority of Lizardmen players vastly prefer the Salamander to the Razordon- claiming that they are much better. Now, there is some truth to this, however, it’s a sort of twisted, illogical truth that I tend to disagree with. Salamanders are no better point for point than Razordons. They are simply two different tools for two different roles. People seem to think that Razordons are inferior to Salamanders because they attempt to use Razordons for the same role as Salamanders- which the Razordons will inevitably fail at. Ultimately, Salamanders shouldn’t be an auto-pick, but rather when choosing their list the player should really consider what role they need their pack to fulfil. We’ll start with Salamanders.
Salamanders are the more aggressive of the two hunting pack monsters. They are not terribly subtle- they run up and kill shit with fire. They make excellent horde killers, due to their flame templates, as well as being able to completely wreck heavy cavalry due to their insane armour modifier. Their ridiculous speed combined with their ability to march and shoot in 8th edition makes them potent flankers, as well as making them easy to position midfield in amongst your saurus to maximise you damage potential early on. This incredible movement also allows them to fight a very effective retreat, running up, shooting fire and then moving backwards whilst shooting as the enemy advances. People will point out that they can have a better range than Razordons, but in reality they don’t- to make the best use of their abilities they should be closer than 12” to the enemy. I have a few simple rules for using Salamanders; follow these and you should be burning your enemies all game.
  1. Avoid combat at all costs. As previously mentioned, these guys are terrible in combat. Never charge, even if a flank or rear charge presents itself. Shoot it instead. Always flee. Some will point out that there are times when this will be suicide, as the enemy will catch you. This brings me to my next point. If you get them into combat, you’re minimising you damage potential and are quite probably handing you opponent Victory Points.
  2. Your optimum killing range is about 5-8”. If in the enemy’s front arc, never get closer than 8”- the length of the flame template. You risk being caught when fleeing. When attacking the flank or rear, 5” is about right, and you can decrease this to 4” when attacking a unit in horde formation in the flank. Any closer and there’s a good chance you’ll overshoot, or at least do a negligible number of hits as the fat end of the template overshoots.
  3. If attacking the midfield, these guys should be advancing with saurus, so they can hide behind them as the saurus receive charges for them. The same really applies when hunting heavy cavalry. This essentially stems from rule one.
  4. Remember, the attack is only S3. Don’t bother attacking T5+.
  5. Don’t use these guys against High Elf Dragon Princes. I forgot about Dragon armour and learned that the hard way...
Now, on to Razordons. I’m going to do this part in bold, underlined and italics, and caps lock, just to make sure you get it. DO NOT USE THESE AGGRESSIVELLY. THESE GUYS ARE DEFENSIVE, IF YOU WANT AN AGGRESSIVE PACK, USE SALAMANDERS. The reason people think these are worse than Salamanders is because they keep comparing them to Salamanders. They do different things. The main draws of Razordons over Salamanders can be summarised as three things-

  1. Superior Range. They’ve got 12” range, use it.
  2. S4. Whilst they don’t have the lovely save modifier of Salamanders, they will wound higher toughness models.
  3. Super awesome sexy Stand and Shoot power. This is the main reason for their existence in your list.
Under the current ruleset, these guys will not get as many hits on units as Salamanders, and they will not cause as many wounds on higher AS troops. This essentially means that they are most effective at attacking smaller units, or lightly armoured medium toughness units- Fast Cavalry, ogre/troll equivalents, even other skirmishers, and elves. However, their main strength is as a deterrent. Very few enemy units are going to want to charge three or even two Razordons, each getting six and four artillery dice as their Stand and Shoot reaction respectively. To this end, it’s clear that these guys aren’t suited to the balls out aggression that Salamanders are capable of- they are best placed on flanks as guards against flanking cavalry, turning anything that dares attempt to negate your precious rank bonuses into a pincushion, or alternatively guarding anything else that you deem needing protection- in fact, these would synergise quite well with Salamanders- Salamanders shooting at large units whilst Razordons guard against the inevitable charges that will be thrown at the Salamanders. A few rules for Razordons-

  1. Make the most of your range- There are no to hit modifiers for long range or moving, so once they have guided your Saurus into combat, and have negated any threats to their flank, move back and maintain distance. If the enemy close enough to negate their Stand and Shoot reaction, then the poor Razordons are dead.
  2. Use them defensively- covered above.
  3. Remember that they are there to protect your other units from nasty charges and to soften enemies up- don’t worry about them dying, the charge reaction is more important. Not to mention they will devastate anything that charges them with shooting
  4. Like Salamanders, never charge. Shooting is more potent, and they will contribute little to a combat. One should also note that they really shouldn’t flee ever, as if they would be allowed to flee (meaning that their Stand and Shoot reaction is negated) they will likely be caught. If this is the case, then obviously it’s better to fight a combat that might result I killing a few models than to have them destroyed outright.
So I hope that helps people see that Razordons are still a good choice for Lizardmen, and that it's not really fair to judge them along the same lines that you would Salamanders- they're not designed for the same roles.
 

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Well done. I face both of them regularly and agree completely on how they should be used.
 

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Your views on Razordens are along the same lines I thought of when I chose them for my army list. And I figured it out after looking at them for 2 minutes. Anyone who trys to use them in a more aggressive manner should deserve to seem them killed.
 

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Very simple. I don't use Razordons because being defensive isn't my mind set. They are some of the best "enemy channel" unit there are. NO ONE wants to charge them.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks guys. It's nice to see it's appreciated!

I thought it would be a good idea to do this, especially for the newer players, seeing as how I've lost count of the number of times a new player has come along with a list with Razordons and is immediately told to replace them with Salamanders. Really, so long as they understand what they're there for, and how to use them, then both are equal choices based on what you need.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ah yeah, that might be my next one. I was also thinking of doing a write up on Kroxiskink units, but I really need to get in more games with them before I can write anything meaningful, so war machine hunters seems like a good one to do next.
 

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Personally, I think Salamanders are better on the basis of them fitting in better with the Lizardmen metagame. They already have enough S4 attacks to take on most anything, but the ability to thin out hordes and heavy cavalry is very useful for countering enemy strategies to counter common Lizardmen units. The difference isn't as big as people believe it is, but I think it's there.
 

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But the razordens have much better models.

I think that the current salamanders look slightly silly.
 

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It's not better or worse, as the tactica says. Defending a particular piece of ground or group, Razordons are superior. Assaulting heavy infantry and cav? Salamanders are far more effective. So, Don't take one for the others job. As was the tactical point.
 

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Just a quick thought. How about moving a razordon or two in front of the slaan in his TG ?
Might make the enemy think twice about charging the toad.
 

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Why don't you want the enemy charging your toad? The Temple guard are a ded killy unit! And if they die in front of your toad, skinks might break and stuff! Much better to stand even with the front line and off to the side, so they are part of the combat and can Stand and Fire instead of being a speed bump.
 

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you don't want anyone charging slanns cuz they're among the best wizards in the game, so better to keep them alive as much as possible
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Personally, I think Salamanders are better on the basis of them fitting in better with the Lizardmen metagame. They already have enough S4 attacks to take on most anything, but the ability to thin out hordes and heavy cavalry is very useful for countering enemy strategies to counter common Lizardmen units. The difference isn't as big as people believe it is, but I think it's there.
A valid point, although that could even be a result of your local meta. With the recent love given to both High Elves and Skaven, at least in my local area, Horde killing is a high priority for me, hence I use Salamanders over Razordons. However, if say I faced several Ogre/Chaos Troll armies, or if I saw a lot of 'Empire Fast Cav Shooty lists' I'd probably see Razordons as the better choice.

I think that one's choice in magic Lores for their slann should also greatly affect their choice of hunting pack- if running Life, as I do, I'd be inclined to use Salamanders, simply to add volume of fire. However, if I were using Lore of Light, I be incline to use Razordons- If using lore of light, then those units with devastating charges (WoCs, high elf elites, Ogres, heavy cavalry and even certain chariots spring to mind) become a whole lot more dangerous on the charge, than if you pumped up a key Saurus unit to T6, so stopping those lance charges/impact hits or even just doing a whole heap of damage before they hit your main line becomes even more important.

you don't want anyone charging slanns cuz they're among the best wizards in the game, so better to keep them alive as much as possible
Except that the Slann should really be in the second rank of that unit of temple guard, where even in combat, the Temple Guard do all the fight'n, whilst he throws all of those lovely augments around.
 

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Nice tactica! You've just lit a lightbulb in my head! After some thought, I preferred sallies to razordons. But yesterday, I had 2 units of pistoliers harassing my sauruses and I was trying to come up with a solution...

Even a single razordon on each flank might help!? I'll have to try it!

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah, a single Razordon on each flank should handle it. I assume units of 5 pistoliers?
 

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Really good tactica sir, well done :eek:k:

I think 3 things have influenced the preference for salamanders-

1) changes to flame template hits mean we can really lay hurt on the large units of infantry

2) the increase in potency of our saurus blocks means lizzie armies are featuring more saurus blocks. this means the army moves into combat range much more readily, meaning that salamanders have support when getting in close

3) probably the most important one- salamanders cover a weakness that lizardmen have, in dealing with heavy armour. We lack the war machines that are the usual armour-hitters, meaning we have to rely on magic or stegadon charges to hit heavy armour. The salamanders cover us brilliantly in that respect, and my local opponents have learned to hate them- chaos warriors in particular!

but the razordons also act as excellent flank guards, and give valuable support to our skink units. i have only used the razors a couple of times but i do enjoy letting him try and charge my skinks, fleeing with them and then leaving him the decision whether to redirect into the razors or not. Apparently 2 razors firing 34 S4 shots can actually kill 6 dragon knights :laugh: who knew? that mistake wasnt repeated again but when he sat in front of me i just took great delight in shooting him to death with the razors and re-formed skinks :spiteful:

i do hate dragon knights with a passion....
 

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Thanks for the post. It is heartening to see some one actually talking about the aspects of a model, as opposed to the all too common "its worse because I can't kill anything with them" argument.
 
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