[Xabre]

I posted this question on a few groups already. I've seen some various replies, and I'm gathering more opinions.

In the new SM Codex, the Librarius Conclave Formation (and also the datasheet that was released last year for Dark Angels!) has an interesting rule.

Short version: Nominate one Librarian to cast ALL powers that the other librarians in this formation (within 12" of the nominated dude) knows. If one Libby is within 12" of the 'master', he casts on a 3+. if 2 are within 12", he casts on a 2+. If you use this option, ALL Librarians (regardless of within 12") can't cast until the end of the psychic phase.

Emphasis mine, but you can guess where this question is going.

RAI, this means to say that the Librarians can't cast again until their next turn. To my knowledge there are no effects anymore that can be activated in another turn, during assault (I'm looking at you, Force), etc. To mix games, every Psychic Power is a 'sorcery', not an 'instant'.

RAW, I'm finding more and more people that are saying that 'until the end of the psychic phase' means that as long as everything else in that phase has happened, you can THEN start casting with those Librarians because now it's the end of your phase.

However, in the BRB, 'End of the Phase' is listed as 'after all other actions have occurred, before the next phase begins' (I'm paraphrasing from memory). So for instance, picking up the Relic happens at the END of the movement phase, after all movement, before Shooting begins.

So... what's your take on it? Are the Librarians unable to act at all for casting until their next turn, and GW once again failed to write a rule correctly? Or can they cast AT the end of the psychic phase?

 

[Nordicus]

I must admit I don't see the big question here - it says until the end of the psychic phase specifically; Hence the other librarians cannot cast in that turn, as when the phase ends, so does their ability to use any sort of psychic powers. You are then in the shooting phase.

Seems to me like intentional misinterpreting to me.

 

[Xabre]

That's my personal belief, but I'm willing to put it to debate for those people who feel that 'end of phase' is its own time period for casting. Honestly, I'd love to see real arguments from people on that side of things. It usually devolves into 'they're just bad people to try and get away with that'.

 

[MidnightSun]

The Librarians in the formation other than the nominated Librarian for the Formation's special rule can't cast that turn. The logical premises of this argument are located at the ends of my arms.

 

[ntaw]

Seems to me like intentional misinterpreting to me.

The logical premises of this argument are located at the ends of my arms.

Sums up my thoughts quite nicely.

'they're just bad people to try and get away with that'

There are so many formations and detachments out there (as I think you've mentioned yourself), why even bother with these little grey areas? Lots of ways to win without spending half your time with the hobby debating GW's wording.

 

[Stormxlr]

Did it work the same for DA version too ?

 

[Xabre]

Because DA has a smaller player base, it hasn't come up ad much. Plus it was a web release. I never knew about the DA version until this one was released.

 

[Stormxlr]

Because DA has a smaller player base, it hasn't come up ad much. Plus it was a web release. I never knew about the DA version until this one was released.

I see, im kinda annoyed a bit that SM are getting all the cool DA stuff like Conclave and Deathwing Assault.... Just much better.

 

[ntaw]

At least the DA book is still up for renewal, and that book is over two years old. Try being a SW or BA player :laugh:

 

[Xabre]

Or Thousand Sons. You know, the guys that DESERVE a giant sorcerer conclave.


Honestly, with the wargear options, and how deadly Mind Worm can be, the DA version is pretty sweet. And I'm sure Deathwing Assault will get better in their own formations.

 

[MidnightSun]

Dark Angels players still haven't accepted their status as the whipping boys of GW, forever doomed to be the shitty green Marines who do nothing regular Marines can't do better and at randomly higher points costs?

You've had like four editions to get used to it, guys - hell, I did and I only played them as DA after the 6th ed Codex dropped!

 

[Vaz]

I think that the reason why the TSons didn't get a Conclave might be to do with it being Codex Space Marines that got the rules. And as for power? I always found it strange when the Imperial Guard could field Psykers of similar might to a Librarian or Eldar Warlock. Now, while on a 1v1, they're roughly equal, a Librarius Conclave is pretty conclusively suggestive of why the Space Marines are better.

In regards to the other chapters not getting updated, it's about time they were folded back into the core rules.

 

[Xabre]

The Librarius Conclave is actually a very similar powerlevel to a Seer's Council. Better casting, less dice. And since the Master Librarian gets all the spells, there's no real downside.

 

[MidnightSun]

In regards to the other chapters not getting updated, it's about time they were folded back into the core rules.

The Space Marines Codex is a 200-page hardback, if they add all the Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Space Wolf unique shit to it I won't be able to take the fucker anywhere without a pallet truck. It'd also cost a bajillion dollars.

 

[Vaz]

What unique shit? I'm going to discount special characters, relics and psychic powers here.

Space Wolves? Fenrisian Wolf/Cyberwolf Pets, Chaplains which act like Apothecaries, Scout equivalents in Power Armour, Elite Scouts, True Grit Tactical Squads, Thunderwolves, Lone Killer Marines, Stormwolf/Stormfang, Helfrost weapons.

Of those, you've got "ancient martian hoodoo weapons", variant flyers, primal pets/cavalry, an upgrade for scouts/option for Veterans, upgrade for Chaplains, upgrades for Tactical Squads.

Blood Angels; ever increasingly "diverse" assault marines, some of which are similar to old school Wulfen, or what Mark of the Wulfen once was. Variant predator tank, samples of which were likely stolen following the near destruction of the Lamenters at the hands of the Minotaurs during the Badab Conflict, and due to their connection, possibly on their way around the rest of the chapters with close affiliation (like Red Hunters say) with the Inquisition. Or if it was me, that's how I'd write the story as to why Assault Cannons are now available on Predators (Flamestorms already are).

Dark Angels? Elite Bikers, Elite Terminators, even eliter Terminators.

Really diverse options. For the sake of an upgrade to Vanguard Vets and a Chapter Tactic.

Black Templars we've already seen how they can be handled.

 

[MidnightSun]

Blood Angels have a chapter tactic, Librarian Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Sanguinary Priests, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Baal Predators, and five or more special characters. Dark Angels have 3 special characters if you don't count Asmodai, FOC swaps for Terminators, Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Terminator Command Squads, Darkshrouds, Nephilim Jet fighters, Dark Talons, and Land Speeder Vengeances, plus a chapter tactic. Space Wolves have at least five special characters, different statlines for Skyclaws, Blood Claws and Swiftclaws, alternative Dreadnought loadouts, Thunderwolves, Fenrisian Wolves, the Stormwolf and Stormfang flyers, Wolf Guard instead of Sternguard and Vanguard, alternative Librarians and Chaplain/Apothecaries, and alternative squad composition for their Tactical Marine equivalent.

That's without going into unique wargear or alternative unit options.

 

[ntaw]

What unique shit?

:laugh: Troll.

I'm all for less books to carry around but c'mon man.

 

[Vaz]

Not even trolling.

BA? Psyker Dreads. What makes Psyker dreads so unique to BA? Furioso Dreadnoughts, basically assault dreadnoughts by another name. IC apothecaries...

Most of these rules are slight special rule changes or wargear upgrades. They all play very very similarly.

They are hardly as divergent as CSM from SM, or Nids and Orks to IG.

Giving an Apoth the option to become an IC. Give a Dreadnought an option to be taken as a HQ where it can be a former captain, libby or chaplain.

Veteran Super Assault Marine Bodyguards and Crazy Fallen Assault Marines. So SM Honour Guard with Jump Packs and a new unit called 'Fallen Marines', which in the fluff represents Death Company or Wulfen or even entire Chapters dedicated to it as such; like the Black Dragons say.

Baal Predators? You mean A) no other chapter thought 'oh lets overload our engines' or b; 'we need better antihorde capabilities, lets whack an asscan on there'? Or c) reverse engineered it from captured vehicles such as above, wreckage, or even footage?

Variant flyers or vehicles, you can ask why BA or SW dont have access to the hunter or stalker. I distinctly remember there being a quote from sanguinius following his death saying 'boys, ignore rowboat and his silly ideas about having Surface mounted air defence systems'.

Death Company command squads? Is it really that hard to give sm terminator bgs? Dwknights? Terminator honour guard? Rw knights, because only DA have honour guard on bikes, right?

 

[ntaw]

Yup. Still entirely disregarding you on this one.

Woo Librarius Conclave not being able to cast shit at the end of their phase!

 

[MidnightSun]

How about we have one Codex that contains a Scout, a Space Marine, and a 30k-era Centurion statline HQ for infantry, and a Land Speeder, a Rhino and a Land Raider for tanks? Add the Flyers and you could have all the Marine units from all the Marine chapters available from those eight unit entries! We'd have one four-page Codex instead of five 150-200 pagers!