[sir_m1ke]

Howdy all

Tonights question is one that i have been considering for a number of days. The example i will use is that of a unit of Minotaurs from the Beasts of Chaos book. The entry for the additional equipment says "One choice only" but does not state that every model in the unit muist be equipped identically

so the first part of my question is- is there anything in the BRB that forbids mixed-weapons in the same unit?

I will continue on as if this is a legal option. say you have a 6-man (-bull?) unit, 3 by 2. Imagine then that the front rank are all equipped with hand weapons and shields, and the back rank are equipped with great weapons.

In close combat, hits are taken against the front rank but wounds are removed from the back rank. So does this mean that the minotaurs in question will have a 5+/6++ save, but that the wounds will come off the great weapon armed bulls in the back rank? even though they do not have the save in question?

and then you hit back with 9 S7 supporting attacks :grin:

thoughts?

 

[Masked Jackal]

There was something in 7th, which stated that you had to pick the weapon at the beginning of combat, but I don't know about 8th.

 

[The Son of Horus]

One choice refers to "All minotaurs in the unit may have one of the following."

You do have to declare which weapon you'll use at the start of combat. If you give the Minotaurs great weapons, they have to use them in favor of a hand weapon-- the 8th edition rules specify that models with "special" weapons must use them.

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

The only reference I can find either way is at the start of the weapon section. Page 88: "It is acceptable for a unit to include a minority of models that are differently armed for the sake of a varied and interesting appearance but the unit still counts as being armed as the majority."

So, you can model the unit with different weapons but they must all be armed the same.

 

[Asmodeun]

I'm inclined to agree with dave, here.

 

[effigy22]

So... what about black orcs?

 

[Putch.]

Black orcs have a rule that dicates they can use whatever weapon they like, but MUST decide at the start of combat, and use that weapon for the duration of said combat. I think this would also override the new ruling of, if you have a special weapon, you must use it. Since Armybook override the BRB.

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

Black orcs have a rule that dicates they can use whatever weapon they like, but MUST decide at the start of combat, and use that weapon for the duration of said combat.

Not just Black Orks; page 89 of the (Really) BRB states that any unit with more than one special weapon must choose at the start of combat, and that every model (apart from the characters) must choose the same weapon.

So, if a particular army book allows more that one weapon to be purchased then there is not problem with modelling several or buying several provided that in any one combat all of the unit use the same weapon for the whole combat.

 

[sir_m1ke]

The only reference I can find either way is at the start of the weapon section. Page 88: "It is acceptable for a unit to include a minority of models that are differently armed for the sake of a varied and interesting appearance but the unit still counts as being armed as the majority."

So, you can model the unit with different weapons but they must all be armed the same.

The difference here though is that it is not simply a case of modelling the minotaurs, but that it is a case of actual equipment bought in the army list. To combine this with the point made by Son of Horus, the army list section for minotaurs says that you purchase "Additional Equipment (one of the following)". Nothing states that the unit must all be equipped with the same weapon, nor that there can not be a mix of weapons in the unit. So from my viewpoint, this is a legal unit

And to continue with the point made by Son of Horus:

You do have to declare which weapon you'll use at the start of combat. If you give the Minotaurs great weapons, they have to use them in favor of a hand weapon-- the 8th edition rules specify that models with "special" weapons must use them.

The issue here is that 3 of the models have great weapons and 3 have shields and hand weapons. So 3 models have no option but to use the great weapons, and 3 have no option but to use hand weapons. And since the 3 hand weapon bulls have shields, they gain the extra armour save and parry save as well.

Just to recap my point, since the shieldbearing bulls are in base to base contact they are the ones being hit, but wounds are removed from the back rank. So any wounds caused can be saved by a 5+/6++ save, but come off the non-shield armed bulls in the back. Said bulls stil get 3 supporting S7 attacks back

am i making my argument clear enough? if someone doesnt get it please jus shout

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

The difference here though is that it is not simply a case of modelling the minotaurs, but that it is a case of actual equipment bought in the army list.

am i making my argument clear enough? if someone doesnt get it please jus shout

I agree that Army Books sometimes do not make it clear whether or not every model must have the same equipment.

Whilst the BRB does not explicitly state the entire unit must be armed in the same way, if units could be armed with a mix of weapons they would make reference to it beyond indicating it was acceptable for modelling purposes.

Also, page 88 says that if a unit is modelled with a mix of weapons it counts as being armed with the majority, so your unit of 6 Minotaurs (if modelled to each have the options purchased for them) would cause a breakdown in the fabric of space time as there was no majority weapon.

 

[sir_m1ke]

Also, page 88 says that if a unit is modelled with a mix of weapons it counts as being armed with the majority, so your unit of 6 Minotaurs (if modelled to each have the options purchased for them) would cause a breakdown in the fabric of space time as there was no majority weapon.

THIS WOULD BE AWESOME :shok:

My issue really is that in 6th Edition (the last one i played properly before 8th) it was explicitly stated that models in a unit are armed the same AFAIK, unless the army list entry stated otherwise. This doesnt affect most infantry as they all tend to have limited options, but the minos have a variety of options and a great deal of ambiguity about what is a legal option and what is not

and to take your point about the majority equipment- say i have 9 minos in a 3 by 3 unit, with the back 2 ranks with GWs and the front w/ hand weapons and shields. The majority of the unit has GWs, but the front rank does not have them. How can they attack with GWs when they are not equipped with them? do they not attack? do they hit with the bonus S even if not equipped?

dear Lord a wormhole has just opened right beside me!!! nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....................

 

[Wolf_Lord_Skoll]

I think it's safe to assume they all must take the same weapon. No confusion.
Orge Maneaters specifically state they may have different weapons for example.

 

[sir_m1ke]

I think it's safe to assume they all must take the same weapon. No confusion.
Orge Maneaters specifically state they may have different weapons for example.

Nothing in the rules or the army list states that they must all take the weaponry

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

I think it's safe to assume they all must take the same weapon. No confusion.
Orge Maneaters specifically state they may have different weapons for example.

Nothing in the rules or the army list states that they must all take the weaponry

True

However the existence of a rule permitting a unit to not all take the same weapon raises a very strong implication; otherwise why would Maneaters need the rule?