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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This army is built up around a Possessed Diabolist (Sorcerer, as Dark Apostles do not have access to Psychic Powers) and his Coryphaus leading a Terminators squad. Possessed are mainly Forge World models (Gal Vorbak and Zardu Layak as far as the Mhara Gal tainted Dreadnought for the Helbrute and Ashen Circle for the Raptors).

I'll open a WIP thread when I start the modelling process from what I already have, but here is the list, for comments and discussion :

Serrated Flame (Crimson Slaughter CAD) : 1850 points

HQ
  • Chaos Sorcerer (155pts)
    • Prophet of the Voices, Spell Familiar, Psyker (level 3 - all powers in Malefic Daemonology)
  • Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour (127pts)
    • Combi-Melta, Chainfist
Elite
  • Helbrute (115pts)
    • Heavy Flamer
  • Chaos Terminators (216pts)
    • 4 Chaos Terminators (2 Power Axes, Reaper Autocannon, Combi-Melta, Combi-Flamer, Combi-Plasma, Power Maul, Chainfist)
    • Champion (Combi-Melta, Power Axe)
Troops
  • Possessed (296pts)
    • 8 Possessed (Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess)
    • 1 Champion (Mark of Slaanesh)
  • Chaos Space marines (224pts)
    • 7 Space marines (Plasmagun, Icon of Vengeance)
    • Aspiring Champion (Combi-Plasma, Melta Bombs)
    • Chaos Rhino (Combi-Melta, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade)
Fast Attack
  • Raptors (135pts)
    • 4 Raptors (2 Flamers)
    • Champion (Combi-Flamer, Power Sword, Melta Bombs)
  • Warp Talons (180pts)
    • 4 Warp Talons (Mark of Nurgle)
    • Champion (Mark of Nurgle)
Heavy Support
  • Havocs (155pts)
    • 4 Havocs (2 Missile Launchers, 2 Flakk Missiles, Autocanon, Lascannon)
    • Aspiring Champion
  • Chaos Land Raider (247pts)
    • Havoc Missile Launcher, Dirge Caster

Tactically speaking, the Diabolist joins the Possessed and gets protected within them (he has not the FNP because no Mark of Slaanesh). He conjures Daemons to screen their move forward or help to prevent them being stuck too long in CC. Warp Talons do the same as Daemons. Terminators come in Deep Strike with the Chaos Lord, Ashen Circle jumps and burns. Helbrute, Land Raider, Havocs and Space Marines give heavy or fire support where needed.
 

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Are you bringing that Land Raider just for its AV14 and Lascannons? 'Cuz I feel like there's gotta be something more effective for the points. Even with PotMS standard LRs are a rarity on the field thanks to their wide hull not often getting both lascannons on the same target and hilariously mismatched heavy bolter accompaniment. If it's an "I got this model and I want to use it" thing that's cool, but if you haven't built the models for this list yet it might be worth swapping out.

Well formatted list, by the way.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Out of curiosity, which force weapon are you taking on the Sorc? I generally go with a force axe myself, but he does need to survive long enough in a challenge to be able to use it, so there's no shame in going force sword (and without Biomancy for a shot at Iron Arm for Smash, I think a force maul is probably not the way to go).

I'm curious who the Lord goes with, since 4 Termis and their Champ fill up the Land Raider, so there's not space for him to join them there. Yaaay crappy CSM Land Raider options!

Chaos Terminators (216pts)
4 Chaos Terminators (2 Power Axes, Reaper Autocannon, Combi-Melta, Combi-Flamer, Combi-Plasma, Power Maul, Chainfist)
Champion (Combi-Melta, Power Axe)
Hmm, I might go for a second combi-plasma instead of a combi-flamer, though I realize you probably are working from the wargear your minis came with. A pretty good kit of weapons there, but I might swap the power maul for a second chainfist, if I were kitting the unit out, for better Knight-killing capability. And... no MoT to save the Termis from all the nasty AP2 and AP1 out there?

Chaos Space marines (224pts)
7 Space marines (Plasmagun, Icon of Vengeance)
Aspiring Champion (Combi-Plasma, Melta Bombs)
Chaos Rhino (Combi-Melta, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade)
Hmm. I can't help but feel that a lot of the upgrades on this unit--while they're useful, for about the same cost you could have a Rhino, 10 CSM and 2 plasma guns, which are going to perform more reliably and are rather more resilient. I think the IoV is overpriced for a 7-man unit who will pass most of its Ld tests already; I don't think the Rhino needs 3 upgrades, for being such a box of soggy cardboard that will crumple against the first or second dedicated AT shooting directed against it; and I'd rather have a second plasma gun than a champ who can shoot plasma once. Any upgrades you really want to keep (say, meltabombs, dozer blades, and dirge caster) mean squeezing the rest of the list a bit tighter--say, dropping the Raptor champ's one-shot flamer that costs twice what a normal flamer does.

Havocs (155pts)
4 Havocs (2 Missile Launchers, 2 Flakk Missiles, Autocanon, Lascannon)
Aspiring Champion
Flakk missiles are a personal choice, but I personally think they're rather over-priced--against anything except a Dakkajet, Crimson Hunter or Nid Harpy/Crone, S7 AP4 (especially only 2 shots at that) are really not reliable enough to down a flier or FMC.

I would love to see pics of this army all together, as those are some damned cool FW Word Bearers minis!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Are you bringing that Land Raider just for its AV14 and Lascannons? 'Cuz I feel like there's gotta be something more effective for the points. Even with PotMS standard LRs are a rarity on the field thanks to their wide hull not often getting both lascannons on the same target and hilariously mismatched heavy bolter accompaniment. If it's an "I got this model and I want to use it" thing that's cool, but if you haven't built the models for this list yet it might be worth swapping out.

Well formatted list, by the way.
The choice of the Land Raider actually comes from the models I have already worked upon (it's about 90% mounted and painted, and that took me hours to make it deployable upon a battlefield). Besides that, it's also the most emblematic vehicle of the Great Crusade and Heresy battles through all the Black Library books I have read so far about this era.

For this particular list, I'd actually like to focus upon the models and the 30K late Heresy Word Bearers (I have finally read the FW rules about it but prefer to stay in 40K because I do not know anyone playing 30K in my area). I therefore don't consider Daemon Engines for it, for instance.

Out of curiosity, which force weapon are you taking on the Sorc? I generally go with a force axe myself, but he does need to survive long enough in a challenge to be able to use it, so there's no shame in going force sword (and without Biomancy for a shot at Iron Arm for Smash, I think a force maul is probably not the way to go).
I also would prefer the Force Sword, but I won't customize the model (the staff is great, and I'm not keen at sculpting). If my opponent doesn't agree, I would therefore go Force Stave/Maul. Anyway, it doesn't matter so much as the Sorcerer is going to hide himself into the FNP Possessed (with Challenges done by the Possessed Champion, until he dies or there are more than one character into the enemy unit).

Every Wound is a treasure for a Diabolist (even a Daemon one). I'm hesitating about giving him the Daemonheart Crimson Slaughter Relic for the "It will not die" ability. It's not a cheap one, and would make him quite expensive, but as he remains the keystone of the list, it may be worthwhile.

I'm curious who the Lord goes with, since 4 Termis and their Champ fill up the Land Raider, so there's not space for him to join them there. Yaaay crappy CSM Land Raider options!
The Lord goes with the Termies but would come with them in Deep Strike. I have had better results with Terminators in DS than into the Land Raider. That's why the Land Raider is a Heavy Support entry, not a dedicated transport for the Terminators.

My favourite (but uncertain and hazardous) opening move with the Land Raider is possible when the Possessed get shrouded (with Spirit Beacons result at the beginning of the turn). I therefore embark them, make the LR move at cruising speed and use its Smoke Launchers (3+ cover save in the open).

If I was sure I could have Spirit Beacons at first turn, I would give it Destroyer Blades (and even, maybe, Daemonic Possession) and make it (litterally speaking) an assault vehicle.

Which option do you find the best ones for a CSM Land Raider ?

Hmm, I might go for a second combi-plasma instead of a combi-flamer, though I realize you probably are working from the wargear your minis came with. A pretty good kit of weapons there, but I might swap the power maul for a second chainfist, if I were kitting the unit out, for better Knight-killing capability. And... no MoT to save the Termis from all the nasty AP2 and AP1 out there?
I've actually put it as my wargear is, but I can live with a combi-flamer being a combi-plasma. I just thought that I missed some Template weapons (against enemies with large units), but it was before adding the Raptors.

My first try for this list included all the marks (MoT on the Termies, and MoK on the Raptors), to symbolize the dedication of the Word Bearers to all the 4 Gods. Fluffy speaking, I think I'll come back to that soon.

The only time I have played against a Knight, I completely ignored it because I felt that I would need too many resources to just try and bring it down. Is it possible to take care of it with 3 Chainfists ?

Hmm. I can't help but feel that a lot of the upgrades on this unit--while they're useful, for about the same cost you could have a Rhino, 10 CSM and 2 plasma guns, which are going to perform more reliably and are rather more resilient. I think the IoV is overpriced for a 7-man unit who will pass most of its Ld tests already; I don't think the Rhino needs 3 upgrades, for being such a box of soggy cardboard that will crumple against the first or second dedicated AT shooting directed against it; and I'd rather have a second plasma gun than a champ who can shoot plasma once. Any upgrades you really want to keep (say, meltabombs, dozer blades, and dirge caster) mean squeezing the rest of the list a bit tighter--say, dropping the Raptor champ's one-shot flamer that costs twice what a normal flamer does.
As former 2nd Edition player, that's a common problem for me : I tend to make equipment and upgrades prevail upon the number of models. But I'm working on it :D

Flakk missiles are a personal choice, but I personally think they're rather over-priced--against anything except a Dakkajet, Crimson Hunter or Nid Harpy/Crone, S7 AP4 (especially only 2 shots at that) are really not reliable enough to down a flier or FMC.
I know they are not cheap, and not very efficient used alone. But since I have managed to destroy a Storm Talon with a crossfire of those Havocs and this Land Raider, and realized that I could have made the Storm Raven crash with those results (alongside with the Ironclad Dreadnought and the Terminators lead by Tigurius inside), I can't help thinking they are worthwhile.

I would love to see pics of this army all together, as those are some damned cool FW Word Bearers minis!
4 of the 5 Gal Vorbak models are already into my showcase (following the link in my signature) ... I "just" need to take care of their bases and some colchisian writings upon their parchments and armours. I'll open a WIP thread when I set up my modelling table back and start working upon my current models and the new ones I get from Forge World.

Now that I have made a first step to come back into the game after 20 years, I'd like to improve into playing and modelling. Thank you both for your advises, I'll post a new version of the list as soon as I have clearly thought about them ;)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Ooh, looking at the Daemon allies you have--I feel like Daemonettes are too fragile to field in minimum-size squads, but you could bring Horrors to act as a Warp Charge bank for your Sorc. Screamers are solid, yeah, and only get tougher when you have a way to give them Shrouded--rerollable 2+ cover, yay! (I pair them with Be'lakor and let them rip, generally). I suppose the Skull Cannon gives you various Assault Grenades on your daemon-fused CSM squads, so that hits a niche nicely (even if that niche shouldn't have to be filled in the first place, GW! grrr)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I don't know anything about Be'lakor ... in which codex/supplement/dataslate might I find it ?

The Skull Cannon was indeed firstly there to fill the gap of the lack of grenages for the Possessed, Warp Talons and Daemons. In practise, I also have found out that many people consider a BS5 S8 Blast with Ignore Covers as a real threat in itself. And it can move forward every turn until it charges (with D6 S7 HoW attacks, before the ones of the Bloodletters after the FAQ).

A really good surprise, and I like the model (not finished yet, though). I guess that the CSM "equivalent" is the Vindicator (one long range big weapon as Heavy Support). But when playing with an Allied detachment, I always consider fielding the Skull Cannon.

Daemonettes are fragile. But if the opponent does not take care of them soon enough (instead of aiming at Possessed, Warp Talons and Dirge Casters), they can rip off any armour with Rending. In this CSM Diabolist list, it's exactly their purpose : screening and threatening. Plaguebearers and Bloodletters can do the same. I don't have Horrors yet, but when I have, I'll try to conjure them first and have more dice for the other ones ;)
 

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I know this will probably ruin the whole idea of your list, but in the fluff I have read of Word Bearers (the omnibus) they seem to despise sorcerers, which is most likely why Dark Apostles don't have access to psychic powers, but also in the fluff there is a lot of daemon summoning going on, so I guess it could work either way. In my Word Bearers army, I just have the daemons as allies, removing the need for chance during the psychic phase. And in regards to Belakor, he has his own supplement, which is definitely worth looking into, as he is one beast of a Daemon Prince.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I know this will probably ruin the whole idea of your list, but in the fluff I have read of Word Bearers (the omnibus) they seem to despise sorcerers, which is most likely why Dark Apostles don't have access to psychic powers, but also in the fluff there is a lot of daemon summoning going on, so I guess it could work either way. In my Word Bearers army, I just have the daemons as allies, removing the need for chance during the psychic phase. And in regards to Belakor, he has his own supplement, which is definitely worth looking into, as he is one beast of a Daemon Prince.
You're not ruining anything, I do agree with you ;)

Fluffy speaking, Word Bearers "psykers" (i.e. people who are somehow connected to the Warp) are not "Sorcerers" (like the Thousand Sons, for instance). They are able to understand the flow of the Warp, to follow it and even increase it, but not in a purpose of knowledge, manipulation or control (even if Erebus and Lorgar's points of view slightly differ on that matter).

By the rules, however, Daemonology is a Psychic discipline only available to Sorcerers in the CSM Codex. The idea of this list comes from the new Zhardu Layak model (that I find amazing) and the rules of FW 30K Word Bearers (let's hope 40K will go that way, allowing Daemonology to Dark Apostles into the next CSM Codex version).

As you may see in my showcase, my Word Bearers army is also allied to Daemons (and psychic powers are into the Daemon Allied Detachment). This list is full CSM, but the psyker is, finally, still a Daemon (as he is Possessed) ...
 

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I don't know anything about Be'lakor ... in which codex/supplement/dataslate might I find it ?
He's an Undivided Daemon Prince--the very first individual to have been raised to Daemonhood, who the Chaos Gods later humbled for his arrogance. He was originally a WHF character but they released a dataslate online so you can field him as either a CSM or Daemons character. His big sell is that he knows every power on the Telepathy table, so has a guaranteed access to Shrouding and Invisibility. He does cost a pretty penny in points, but with Shrouded base and being a FMC himself... can always Jink for a 2+ cover save.

By the rules, however, Daemonology is a Psychic discipline only available to Sorcerers in the CSM Codex. The idea of this list comes from the new Zhardu Layak model (that I find amazing) and the rules of FW 30K Word Bearers (let's hope 40K will go that way, allowing Daemonology to Dark Apostles into the next CSM Codex version).
I suppose you technically can have a Dark Apostle psyker with the Scrolls of Magnus. Hahahaaaaaaa... nope.

From a background perspective, though, I rather dislike the argument that "Word Bearers all always hate psykers," or "Alpha Legion and Night Lords don't take Chaos marks because they view Chaos as a tool to and don't actually worship the Gods." These generalizations may have been true in 30k, but in 40k... well, 10k years on a slippery slope of arrogance and corruption is a long time for individual warbands to come to their own conclusions as to what the most effective (and self-aggrandizing) methods of dealing with Chaos are. Once the Dark Gods get a ***** in your armor, well... they're only going to widen it and exploit it and drag you further and further from grace.
 

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Yeah Dark Apostles with Daemonology would be very cool! Also btw I just checked out your showcase, and your Gal Vorbak models look very good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
He's an Undivided Daemon Prince--the very first individual to have been raised to Daemonhood, who the Chaos Gods later humbled for his arrogance. He was originally a WHF character but they released a dataslate online so you can field him as either a CSM or Daemons character. His big sell is that he knows every power on the Telepathy table, so has a guaranteed access to Shrouding and Invisibility. He does cost a pretty penny in points, but with Shrouded base and being a FMC himself... can always Jink for a 2+ cover save.
Found with a simple "Google images" search. He looks like the Great Chaos Badass !

I suppose that he's a must-have for every "hard" CSM or Daemons army ?

I suppose you technically can have a Dark Apostle psyker with the Scrolls of Magnus. Hahahaaaaaaa... nope.

From a background perspective, though, I rather dislike the argument that "Word Bearers all always hate psykers," or "Alpha Legion and Night Lords don't take Chaos marks because they view Chaos as a tool to and don't actually worship the Gods." These generalizations may have been true in 30k, but in 40k... well, 10k years on a slippery slope of arrogance and corruption is a long time for individual warbands to come to their own conclusions as to what the most effective (and self-aggrandizing) methods of dealing with Chaos are. Once the Dark Gods get a ***** in your armor, well... they're only going to widen it and exploit it and drag you further and further from grace.
It's true that 10K is a time and space scale difficult to apprehend. When we see everything that has happened on one planet in 2000 years, what are the possibilities in a period 5 times longer in an entire galaxy, moreover when Chaos (disorder, confusion, lack of rules and global entropy) gets involved ? :D

Yeah Dark Apostles with Daemonology would be very cool! Also btw I just checked out your showcase, and your Gal Vorbak models look very good.
Thanks !

(Let's also hope for 5++ save on Daemonic Possessed vehicles and access to specific abilities to Chosen)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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He's not a must have since he's a bit of a glass cannon, at a DP's normal T5 W4. Even with Eternal Warrior and a 2+ jink, he's still, well, 50 more points than Fateweaver.
 

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As Mossy says. Also his lack of Power Armour/Warp-Forged Armour/Iron Hide (only has a 4++ and Shrouded for protection) means he's actually surprisingly prone to losing odd wounds to even Bolters or random explosions and things of the like nature.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Still, I do so love him. Group him with Fateweaver and a Herald of Tzeentch on a disc with Grimoire and you have a reliable Grimoire, Shrouding and Invisibility--that's a lot of buffs! Plus Daemons of Tzeentch reroll 1s on failed saves, so the Screamers with that Herald jink for a rerollable 2+ cover...

But that's a Tzeentch Daemons list, not an Undivided CSM list. Ah well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
After some thinking (and, finally, having read FW rules about the 30K Word Bearers), I have designed the following list. I have switched back to the Daemon alliance, and even went one step further by allying CSM to Daemons (lowering the current CSM Codex weaknesses and allowing the use of the Warp Storm table).

Chaos Daemons CAD with Chaos Space Marines (Crimson Slaughter) Allied Detachment

HQ

  • Keeper of Secrets (260pts) : Psyker (Mastery Level 3), 2* Greater Reward
  • Herald of Tzeentch (125pts) : Disk of Tzeentch, Psyker (Mastery Level 2), Exalted Reward
  • [Crimson Slaughter allies] Sorcerer (130pts) : Prophet of the Voices, Spell Familiar, Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
Troops

  • Daemonettes of Slaanesh (90pts) : 10* Daemonette
  • Plague Bearers of Nurgle (90pts) : 10* Plague Bearer
  • [Crimson Slaughter allies] Possessed (356pts) : 8* Possessed (Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess) + Aspiring Champion (Mark of Slaanesh) + Rhino (Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade, Daemonic Possession)
Elites

  • [Crimson Slaughter allies] Chaos Terminators (374pts) : 2* Terminator (2* Combi-melta, Power axe, Chainfist) + Aspiring Champion (Combi-melta, Chainfist) + Landraider (Dirge Caster)
Fast Attack

  • Tzeentch Screamers (125pts) : 5* Screamer
  • [Crimson Slaughter allies] Chaos Bikers (175pts) : 4* Biker (Mark of Nurgle, 2* Meltagun) + Aspiring Champion (Mark of Nurgle, Combi-melta, Melta bombs)
Heavy Support

  • Skull Cannon (125pts)
The main tactical concern is about bringing the Possessed ASAP into melee :

- The Possessed are a kind of (hazardous, due to the Instruments of Chaos table) deathstar. They are quite resilient but can stay locked in melee by large or armoured units.

- The Sorcerer runs within the Possessed. He is not marked, in order to have as many Malefic Daemonology powers as possible (including the Primaris one). He has no "Feel No Pain" but is trying to hide within his FNP unit. He also can summon basic Daemons as support to screen up units, give them some cover or even unlock the Possessed from melee.

- The Keeper of Secrets picks all its powers up from the Telepathy list, hoping to get Shrouding and/or Invisibility.

- The Landraider and Rhino must bring up their Dirge Casters for sustaining melee units assaults (even if it would prevent them from firing on turn 1).

- At the start of the first turn, except if they are turned into beasts, the Possessed climb into the Landraider. The transport moves 12'' and, if it gets shrouded (by them, or by a Psychic power), will use its Smoke Launchers for improved cover protection (same for the empty Rhino).

- The basic Daemons troops may also be used to cover advancing units and vehicles.

- The Screamers are joined by the Herald of Tzeentch (only using Divination powers) and move on, placing a Portal (the Exalted Reward) as close as possible to the enemy at first turn, hoping it will bunch up some Daemons to give the opponent more targets to choose from, then will turbo boost and bomb up a unit. In the following turn, they still can jink and bomb or even target armoured units/vehicles in melee.

- The Bikers will go tank hunting whenever possible, the Terminators should deep-strike and give support on turn 2 (preferably) or 3, and the Skull Cannon will aim at units under cover (preventing the initiative loss for Daemons or Possessed once they charge into melee).

I've got a bunch of Daemons of different types and allegiances in stock (except for Pink Horrors at the moment), a really resilient Warlord (the Keeper of Secrets with its 2 greater rewards), 7 Psychic levels and the Warp Storm table that could make me test my unengaged units at times, but would make my opponent test his own ones each turn.

Probably more efficient than a single CSM (even armoured) CAD, I guess.
 
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