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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
Ok I'll bite.
Again false. Far stronger? Please. He WAS strained, the reason he has a 'calm' face during this scene is to make it seem that he's not. It plays right into the whole 'psychological warfare/instill fear' thing he goes for.
I am stating facts of what was stated in the book, while you are assigning your own emotional assumptions. Corax had one lightning claw, his other hand had a lightning whip which was destroyed during the fight. Corax attempted to kill Lorgar with his remaining functioning hand which had a lightning claw, he was stopped by Curze who then defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw upward away from lorgar. Here is the exact quote from the book

"Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence. Where the Raven Guard Primarch’s features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless -- a dead man’s smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis. It was the Night Haunter. Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate. Curze looked upon his prostrate brother and ordered him to rise from his knees, disgusted at his cowardice. Corax was not idle as this exchange took place. He fired his flight pack, burning his fuel reserves to escape Curze’s grip. The Raven Lord’s claw ripped free, and Corax soared skyward, carried on jet thrust away from Curze’s rising laughter. "


Again not true. He fled because he was heading to the areas of the battle which were most fierce (as stated by the enemy themselves) and to assist his men in escaping, he cared about keeping his legion alive.
From what was demonstrated in the book Curze was far stronger than Corax, Curze defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw that was striking downwards. Corax had the advantage of inertia and leverage, yet Curze still overpowered him without showing a single sign of strain. At that moment in time Corax was scared for his life, Curze could have killed Corax then and there. Corax had a single functioning hand, Curze had two functioning lightning claws. Curze trapped Corax and could have stabbed him at any moment, the only reason Corax escaped is because he burned out his jump pack to run away.


No, he hated himself for letting Curze's parlor tricks get under his skin and for not staying and denying the enemy two commanders.
Corax is a proud individual like most of the primarchs, and believed he was superior to most others. Corax had a wounded ego after his encounter with Curze, he ran for his life and he knew it. The very fact that Corax believed he could have stayed, killed both Curze and Lorgar in his condition was lunacy on his part. Corax was tired, injured, his breast plate had been shattered, and he only had one functioning hand/weapon.

Corax was assuaging his own wounded ego by telling himself he could have won if he tried, he was bandaging his wounded pride.


And yet he did just that.
Corax with his own strength, inertia, and power was unable to escape Curze's grasp. It states this in the book itself "Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate". The only reason Corax was able to escape was because he burned out the remaining fuel reserves of his jump pack in order to gain the necessary inertia to break free.

Corax required the external inertia, and power of his jump pack being burned out to escape Curze's one handed grasp upon him. That demonstrates how vastly stronger Curze was then Corax, in a comparison of strength.


He could have punched Curze in the face before he had a chance OR stopped his free claw with his other free hand(since only one was directed at Lorgar).
Did you even read the book? Corax's lightning whip was destroyed, his breast plate was shattered, and he had one functioning hand left, which was used to wield his lightning claw. Corax was unaware Curze was even there, and then Corax struck downward with all his strength to strike Lorgar dead.

Curze intercepted Corax's only functioning hand/lighting claw, Curze then grabbed Corax by the wrist and made sure he couldn't escape or maneuver. Corax was unable to do anything on his own, it was only by igniting his remaining fuel reserves that he was able to escape.

Corax had no free hand to punch curze in the face, he only had one functioning hand to begin with, and then curze grabbed Corax by the wrist with his free hand.

Have a nice day sir.
Much like Corax, please do assuage your ego since you clearly lost this battle.
 

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I am stating facts of what was stated in the book, while you are assigning your own emotional assumptions.
It is a widely known theme regarding Curze's character that he excels at instilling fear in his enemies. Emotions? what are those?

Corax had one lightning claw, his other hand had a lightning whip which was destroyed during the fight. Corax attempted to kill Lorgar with his remaining functioning hand which had a lightning claw
Yes that's all nice and dandy but it doesn't mean he can't use his bare fist to punch him and break his nose :)

"Corax looked to meet...snip...It was a smile both taut and mirthless..."
I'm sure you know the meaning of this word, which also helps prove my earlier point that it's an act.


From what was demonstrated in the book Curze was far stronger than Corax, Curze defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw that was striking downwards. Corax had the advantage of inertia and leverage, yet Curze still overpowered him without showing a single sign of strain. At that moment in time Corax was scared for his life, Curze could have killed Corax then and there. Corax had a single functioning hand, Curze had two functioning lightning claws. Curze trapped Corax and could have stabbed him at any moment, the only reason Corax escaped is because he burned out his jump pack to run away.
Well seeing as Corax is spent from the fighting and suffering from several primarch inflicted wounds I suppose at that moment in time he would be weaker than a fresh Curze, point conceded. That still doesn't mean he was scared. It was tactically a dumb move to stay and fight two primarchs when wounded and having his equipment so damaged. On top of this he would want to make sure his legion can escape from the slaughter.


Corax with his own strength, inertia, and power was unable to escape Curze's grasp. It states this in the book itself "Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate". The only reason Corax was able to escape was because he burned out the remaining fuel reserves of his jump pack in order to gain the necessary inertia to break free.
He chose to use his jump pack to escape. Again, he could have used his free hand (which used to wield the whip as you say) and punch him. A punch from a primarch is nothing to scoff at. Just because he didn't do it doesn't mean he couldn't.


Did you even read the book? Corax's lightning whip was destroyed, his breast plate was shattered, and he had one functioning hand left, which was used to wield his lightning claw. Corax was unaware Curze was even there, and then Corax struck downward with all his strength to strike Lorgar dead.
Like I've been saying, if he's whip was destroyed he could discard it and use his fist. Secondly, if his breast plate was damaged if you add that to having damaged/fewer weapons it would be tactically stupid to stay and fight a fresh enemy who's armed/armoured and batshit crazy and on top of that still have to deal with Lorgar (who could still prove to be a threat).

Much like Corax, please do assuage your ego since you clearly lost this battle.
While I'd normally be flattered at being likened to a demigod I'm against the spreading of false facts. Corax lost no battle, and neither did I, although I'm sure in your lunacy driven mind it may not look thay way.

Again, have a nice day.
 

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Night Haunter, assuming there is no escape and the two must fight. Corax did not believe he could defeat Night Haunter on the killing fields of Istvaan, nothing has really changed since that.
I think that's a questionable claim.

1. Corax probably didn't want to risk getting back-stabbed or tripped up by a recovered Lorgar
2. Corax had lost one of his lightning claws
3. I believe Lorgar had cracked open Corax's breastplate with Illuminarium
4. Curze was fresh. Corax was not. He had just slaughtered dozens of Gal Vorbak and fought a duel with another primarch

I think the biggest factors are Lorgar's presence (potentially intervening in a fight between Curze and Corax) and Corax's broken weapon (he only has lightning claws on one hand). This is a set-up that would highly favour Curze. Corax wisely withdrew.
 

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Actually as of the audio novel, I'm fairly certain his whip was still functional. In the audio he uses it when fighting traitors that are hunting the Raven Guard down after the massacre. Not listened to it in a while, but I'm sure that's the case. Doesn't break till later.
 

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He's not using the whip in the main battle he's using his pair of lightning claws, one which gets destroyed during the battle and I'm assuming the second he puts aside or discards so he can use the whip and heavy bolter in A Raven's Flight.
 

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He's not using the whip in the main battle he's using his pair of lightning claws, one which gets destroyed during the battle and I'm assuming the second he puts aside or discards so he can use the whip and heavy bolter in A Raven's Flight.
I could be misremembering...but did Corax somehow craft the power whip after the destruction of his lightning claw
 

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He doesn't use it during the massacre itself no, using his claws instead. But afterwards when they are hiding out in the hills after the massacre, he is using it. It is damaged at some point, but he repairs it in Deliverance Lost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
It seems that he did not have the whip during his fight (or did not use it) with Lorgar, however his left hand was still destroyed during that fight and rendered useless (his claw and gauntlet).

The point still stands that Corax was entirely inaccurate in believing that if he had stayed, he would have killed Curze as well as Lorgar. Corax had a massive ego in that he believed he was superior to all primarchs in combat ability except for a few, namely Horus and Angron.

Corax in his wounded condition would have soundly died at the hands of Curze, and his belief that he would have killed him attests to the fact that Corax's opinion was his way of assuaging his wounded pride from running. Corax only had one functioning hand which was neutralized by Curze's lightning claw, and Corax had a shattered breast plate as well as a broken nose. Curze demonstrated very clearly that he was far stronger than Corax during that battle, particularly when he effortlessly lifted Corax's entire weight/inertia of his downward strike skyward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Vaz every post I have put in this thread is sincere, logical, and to the point. I have posted several times now why I feel that Corax was biased, and for the most part blinded by his own wounded pride.

His statements in deliverance lost were not in any way accurate to the situation he was in with the Night Haunter, and thus highlight how inaccurate his opinion is of others.

Corax believed in hindsight that he could have stayed, and killed the Night Haunter along with Lorgar at the cost of his own life. The circumstances as well as the evidence of the novels demonstrates that Corax was extremely tired, wounded, and his wargear including his armor was extremely compromised. Corax's left hand was destoryed, his breast plate was shattered, and his nose had been broken to a great degree.

Curze caught Corax's only functioning hand that was in a downward strike, Curze then without a single sign of strain lifted Corax's hand skyward in defiance. This highlights the vast difference in strength between the two at that time, Curze without strain overpowered Corax even though the later had the advantage of inertia and leverage.

Vaz is your hate for me blinding you to the fact that what I am posting is entirely logical?
 

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The whip was made on Kiavahr so no I don't believe so, I think it was just at his waist through the major battle.
Odd...I honestly think the claw and whip combo is deadlier than the two claws combo

The whip has some incredible reach, it's fast (like a whip), and it cuts through marines like a hot katana through butter
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Personally I would have loved to see Corax fight Angron

On another note I wonder if Corax's invisibility doesn't effect other primarchs, and I mention this for several reasons. The first is that he didn't use it on Lorgar, the second is that he didn't use it on Curze, and the third is that he was terrified of fighting Angron. The prior mentioned examples causes me to question if it doesn't work on the mind of a primarch, since it is stated that Corax doesn't become tangibly invisible rather he just clouds the minds of those seeing him.

Additionally I would have loved to see Angron fight Vulkan, if only the cannon blasts didn't seperate them. Also I find it interesting that Vulkan was ready to fight Angron when the later challenged Vulkan, and was confident in stride towards him.
 

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On another note I wonder if Corax's invisibility doesn't effect other primarchs,
As it is primarily a stealthy ability maybe he can't use it while fighting. Physical contact would make it very hard for his powers to make someone not see him, especially his brothers. They are all powerful psykers in their own right as well, latent or otherwise, so maybe they are just too strong to fall for it.

Where does it state that he is terrified of fighting Angron?
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
As it is primarily a stealthy ability maybe he can't use it while fighting. Physical contact would make it very hard for his powers to make someone not see him, especially his brothers. They are all powerful psykers in their own right as well, latent or otherwise, so maybe they are just too strong to fall for it.

Where does it state that he is terrified of fighting Angron?
In ravens flight he never states that he is terrified of fighting Angron, rather he states that he believes a fight with Angron will almost surely result in his death. Corax states that in his opinion the only primarchs that could potentially defeat Angron in a fight are Horus, and maybe Sang.

In my opinion I think Corax's opinion as well as perception of the other primarchs is very skewed, and biased as most of the primarchs seem to be. Nearly all of the primarchs view their own self in the top three best fighters, and or their legion views them this way. A handful of the primarchs outright perceive themselves as the number one best among the primarchs, this only goes to show how inflated their egos are.
 
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