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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a multi faceted battle between the two primarchs, consisting of several scenarios each with a different emphasis.

Note: For all of these scenarios this is Konrad Curze post of Unremembered Empire, thus he has his precognitive spidey sense as well as his turning into a shadow power. Konrad Curze is also not suicidal, and will be managing his legion effectively

Scenario 1
Konrad Curze and Corax are each released into an unknown city, they are both tasked with killing the other primarch. This is Konrad Curze post of "Unremembered Empire", thus he has his "precognitive spidey-sense".

Scenario 2
Both Konrad Curze and Corax are inside a football field, they are both to fight to the death

Scenario 3
Instead of the Lion with the Dark Angels battling Curze in their isolated sector war it is Corax and the Raven Guard, which legion wins the war? (Corax does not get the Deus Ex Machina that the Lion received)

Scenario 4
Konrad Curze is tasked with killing the primarch of the Blood Angels, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Corax is tasked with killing the primarch of the World Eaters primarch, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Which primarch is successful, and or are both primarchs successful?

Scenario 5
Konrad Curze and Angron versus Sanguinus and Corax in a fight to the death.

Scenario 6
The Night Lords legion with that of the World Eaters engage versus the Blood Angels Legion and the Raven Guard. The fight is to see which team can eliminate the other team, the war takes place in the sector that the Night Lords fought the Dark Angels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I really don't understand the fascination with Konrad vs. Corax, and honestly I see many threads wasting time debating slightly different variations of the same question. Just let them fight and be done with it
Fascinating, tell me more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you for your response, and just to clarify I meant Corax post of Itsvaan.

However, I forgot to add that for scenario 3 Corax would get his full region pre-Istvaan (80k or so was its size).

I do disagree with the analysis that the World Eaters would be easy to manipulate, I think the Blood Angels are just as easily manipulated due to their innate aggression coupled with their tendency to give into their blood lust.

Horus along with Lorgar both postulated that their only hope of defeating Sanguinus in combat was with Angron (this was when Horus was still human, and not a living avatar of the chaos gods).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Hmm I see your point in that the overall leadership of team loyalists could be the swaying factor in legion vs legion warfare for scenario 6 (mostly due to the World Eaters dragging the Night Lords down).

However, scenario 5 is a two team death match between the traitors and loyalist. This scenario I see the traitors winning, as Angron as well as Curze seem two of the best fighters out of the primarchs. Angron due to his martial ability augmented by the nails, and Curze due to his (as of unremembered empire) active precognition.

The one I am most undecided on is scenario 3, only because the way the novels described the war between the Night Lords and the Dark angels made it sound as though the Night Lords were increasingly winning. Particularly that some high ranked DA officers noted the Lion's composure fracturing due to his inability to defeat the Night Lords. Savage Weapons goes on to describe that for every world the Dark Angels took, the Night Lords took one back from them. That for every victory the Dark Angels attained, they were dealt an equal number of horrendous losses.

It just seems like many people underestimate the effectiveness of the Night Lords as a legion, they stalemated and arguably were defeating the Dark Angels in a legion versus legion war. I just feel that Corax's main strength which is stealth would be greatly nullified due to Curze being a master of it too, thus it would come down to frontal war with one another. The Night Lords are rumored to be at 130k while the RG is around 80k, I don't know if the RG will be able to cover a 50k difference through superiority of skill (arguable).

What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Corax wasn't scared of facing Curze, the only Primarch he said he couldn't imagine beating was Angron. Corax fled the battle because A) he'd been fighting from the onset of the battle and Curze was fresh and B) He still had Lorgar to deal with and to take both of them would of cost him his own life and that of his legion which he wasn't willing to sacrifice.
Merely conjecture proposed by Corax to assuage his own wounded ego from running from Curze, the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him. The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand. Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run, and in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.

Corax was weak as well as tired, and he was unable to escape Curze's grasp. Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand. The only reason Corax escaped is because he burned the entirety of his remaining fuel in his jump pack to give him the inertia to escape Curze's overwhelming strength.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
Ok I'll bite.
Again false. Far stronger? Please. He WAS strained, the reason he has a 'calm' face during this scene is to make it seem that he's not. It plays right into the whole 'psychological warfare/instill fear' thing he goes for.
I am stating facts of what was stated in the book, while you are assigning your own emotional assumptions. Corax had one lightning claw, his other hand had a lightning whip which was destroyed during the fight. Corax attempted to kill Lorgar with his remaining functioning hand which had a lightning claw, he was stopped by Curze who then defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw upward away from lorgar. Here is the exact quote from the book

"Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence. Where the Raven Guard Primarch’s features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless -- a dead man’s smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis. It was the Night Haunter. Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate. Curze looked upon his prostrate brother and ordered him to rise from his knees, disgusted at his cowardice. Corax was not idle as this exchange took place. He fired his flight pack, burning his fuel reserves to escape Curze’s grip. The Raven Lord’s claw ripped free, and Corax soared skyward, carried on jet thrust away from Curze’s rising laughter. "


Again not true. He fled because he was heading to the areas of the battle which were most fierce (as stated by the enemy themselves) and to assist his men in escaping, he cared about keeping his legion alive.
From what was demonstrated in the book Curze was far stronger than Corax, Curze defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw that was striking downwards. Corax had the advantage of inertia and leverage, yet Curze still overpowered him without showing a single sign of strain. At that moment in time Corax was scared for his life, Curze could have killed Corax then and there. Corax had a single functioning hand, Curze had two functioning lightning claws. Curze trapped Corax and could have stabbed him at any moment, the only reason Corax escaped is because he burned out his jump pack to run away.


No, he hated himself for letting Curze's parlor tricks get under his skin and for not staying and denying the enemy two commanders.
Corax is a proud individual like most of the primarchs, and believed he was superior to most others. Corax had a wounded ego after his encounter with Curze, he ran for his life and he knew it. The very fact that Corax believed he could have stayed, killed both Curze and Lorgar in his condition was lunacy on his part. Corax was tired, injured, his breast plate had been shattered, and he only had one functioning hand/weapon.

Corax was assuaging his own wounded ego by telling himself he could have won if he tried, he was bandaging his wounded pride.


And yet he did just that.
Corax with his own strength, inertia, and power was unable to escape Curze's grasp. It states this in the book itself "Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate". The only reason Corax was able to escape was because he burned out the remaining fuel reserves of his jump pack in order to gain the necessary inertia to break free.

Corax required the external inertia, and power of his jump pack being burned out to escape Curze's one handed grasp upon him. That demonstrates how vastly stronger Curze was then Corax, in a comparison of strength.


He could have punched Curze in the face before he had a chance OR stopped his free claw with his other free hand(since only one was directed at Lorgar).
Did you even read the book? Corax's lightning whip was destroyed, his breast plate was shattered, and he had one functioning hand left, which was used to wield his lightning claw. Corax was unaware Curze was even there, and then Corax struck downward with all his strength to strike Lorgar dead.

Curze intercepted Corax's only functioning hand/lighting claw, Curze then grabbed Corax by the wrist and made sure he couldn't escape or maneuver. Corax was unable to do anything on his own, it was only by igniting his remaining fuel reserves that he was able to escape.

Corax had no free hand to punch curze in the face, he only had one functioning hand to begin with, and then curze grabbed Corax by the wrist with his free hand.

Have a nice day sir.
Much like Corax, please do assuage your ego since you clearly lost this battle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
It seems that he did not have the whip during his fight (or did not use it) with Lorgar, however his left hand was still destroyed during that fight and rendered useless (his claw and gauntlet).

The point still stands that Corax was entirely inaccurate in believing that if he had stayed, he would have killed Curze as well as Lorgar. Corax had a massive ego in that he believed he was superior to all primarchs in combat ability except for a few, namely Horus and Angron.

Corax in his wounded condition would have soundly died at the hands of Curze, and his belief that he would have killed him attests to the fact that Corax's opinion was his way of assuaging his wounded pride from running. Corax only had one functioning hand which was neutralized by Curze's lightning claw, and Corax had a shattered breast plate as well as a broken nose. Curze demonstrated very clearly that he was far stronger than Corax during that battle, particularly when he effortlessly lifted Corax's entire weight/inertia of his downward strike skyward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Vaz every post I have put in this thread is sincere, logical, and to the point. I have posted several times now why I feel that Corax was biased, and for the most part blinded by his own wounded pride.

His statements in deliverance lost were not in any way accurate to the situation he was in with the Night Haunter, and thus highlight how inaccurate his opinion is of others.

Corax believed in hindsight that he could have stayed, and killed the Night Haunter along with Lorgar at the cost of his own life. The circumstances as well as the evidence of the novels demonstrates that Corax was extremely tired, wounded, and his wargear including his armor was extremely compromised. Corax's left hand was destoryed, his breast plate was shattered, and his nose had been broken to a great degree.

Curze caught Corax's only functioning hand that was in a downward strike, Curze then without a single sign of strain lifted Corax's hand skyward in defiance. This highlights the vast difference in strength between the two at that time, Curze without strain overpowered Corax even though the later had the advantage of inertia and leverage.

Vaz is your hate for me blinding you to the fact that what I am posting is entirely logical?
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Personally I would have loved to see Corax fight Angron

On another note I wonder if Corax's invisibility doesn't effect other primarchs, and I mention this for several reasons. The first is that he didn't use it on Lorgar, the second is that he didn't use it on Curze, and the third is that he was terrified of fighting Angron. The prior mentioned examples causes me to question if it doesn't work on the mind of a primarch, since it is stated that Corax doesn't become tangibly invisible rather he just clouds the minds of those seeing him.

Additionally I would have loved to see Angron fight Vulkan, if only the cannon blasts didn't seperate them. Also I find it interesting that Vulkan was ready to fight Angron when the later challenged Vulkan, and was confident in stride towards him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
As it is primarily a stealthy ability maybe he can't use it while fighting. Physical contact would make it very hard for his powers to make someone not see him, especially his brothers. They are all powerful psykers in their own right as well, latent or otherwise, so maybe they are just too strong to fall for it.

Where does it state that he is terrified of fighting Angron?
In ravens flight he never states that he is terrified of fighting Angron, rather he states that he believes a fight with Angron will almost surely result in his death. Corax states that in his opinion the only primarchs that could potentially defeat Angron in a fight are Horus, and maybe Sang.

In my opinion I think Corax's opinion as well as perception of the other primarchs is very skewed, and biased as most of the primarchs seem to be. Nearly all of the primarchs view their own self in the top three best fighters, and or their legion views them this way. A handful of the primarchs outright perceive themselves as the number one best among the primarchs, this only goes to show how inflated their egos are.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Ah, so that's just you reading between the lines again.
It is very easy to see that Corax was terrified of facing Angron himself, he stated very clearly that he was afraid to fight Angron because he knew he would die.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
It is not very easy to see. He did not state he was afraid to fight him. He just knew he couldn't win. He may have known it would be a lost cause, but I don't think primarchs are capable of fear.
That is not true, in the Dark King audio book Curze says "Guilliman was wrong when he said that primarchs know no fear, they do and it is lightning in the marrow of the bones."

Dorn as well as Corax both admit they fear Curze for different reasons, primarchs do feel fear as do astartes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
What Dorn or Corax feel about Curze has no bearing on what Corax feels about Angron. You are taking quotes from one source to prove a point in a completely different story. The fact is he did not state he was afraid, he just admitted he'd lose. Honesty does not denote fear. If you infer something from this, that does not make it fact, as much as you'd like it to.

As for the Curze quote about fear, it was a statement of opinion by Curze, the most psychologically unstable of all the primarchs, not a statement of fact as part of the narrative.
Curze was the primarch that was the most in touch with reality, and he was the only one who saw the truth of the reality they all lived in. Every other primarch was blind as well as disillusioned with the concept of hope, salvation, and bringing peace.

Curze's opinion holds the most weight when it comes to understanding fear, reality, and the truth of the warhammer 40k universe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I don't think so.

It's quite a tough call. If Corax can have the initiative and sneak Curze, then Curze is dead. But if Curze can play on the moral of Corax, he can have a fair shot on Corax and kill him.

But on Istvaan, Curze had a gold opening, and Corax flew away and escape him anyway.

In every fight he fought, Curze never fought fairly. His most impressive feat was when he lured Guilliman and the Lion and almost win. Yet, his main attack don't resided in his fighting skill but in a trap he setted before the fight.

The problem is, Corax doesn't fight fairly. They are like Gork and Mork : the god of brutal cunning against the god of cunning brutality.
The question then becomes which of them is the god of brutal cunning, and which of them is the god of cunning brutality?
 
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