[Lux]

This is a multi faceted battle between the two primarchs, consisting of several scenarios each with a different emphasis.

Note: For all of these scenarios this is Konrad Curze post of Unremembered Empire, thus he has his precognitive spidey sense as well as his turning into a shadow power. Konrad Curze is also not suicidal, and will be managing his legion effectively

Scenario 1
Konrad Curze and Corax are each released into an unknown city, they are both tasked with killing the other primarch. This is Konrad Curze post of "Unremembered Empire", thus he has his "precognitive spidey-sense".

Scenario 2
Both Konrad Curze and Corax are inside a football field, they are both to fight to the death

Scenario 3
Instead of the Lion with the Dark Angels battling Curze in their isolated sector war it is Corax and the Raven Guard, which legion wins the war? (Corax does not get the Deus Ex Machina that the Lion received)

Scenario 4
Konrad Curze is tasked with killing the primarch of the Blood Angels, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Corax is tasked with killing the primarch of the World Eaters primarch, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Which primarch is successful, and or are both primarchs successful?

Scenario 5
Konrad Curze and Angron versus Sanguinus and Corax in a fight to the death.

Scenario 6
The Night Lords legion with that of the World Eaters engage versus the Blood Angels Legion and the Raven Guard. The fight is to see which team can eliminate the other team, the war takes place in the sector that the Night Lords fought the Dark Angels.

 

[emporershand89]

I really don't understand the fascination with Konrad vs. Corax, and honestly I see many threads wasting time debating slightly different variations of the same question. Just let them fight and be done with it

 

[Lux]

I really don't understand the fascination with Konrad vs. Corax, and honestly I see many threads wasting time debating slightly different variations of the same question. Just let them fight and be done with it

Fascinating, tell me more.

 

[darkreever]

Just for the sake of clarity, since you've only gone to mention at what point we are looking at Night Haunter, are we to assume that the Corax for these is post Deliverance Lost and has come to terms with stymieing the traitors rather than outright defeating them?

Scenario 1
Konrad Curze and Corax are each released into an unknown city, they are both tasked with killing the other primarch. This is Konrad Curze post of "Unremembered Empire", thus he has his "precognitive spidey-sense".

I think this one is rather even, because while Night Haunter may be rather good at setting up a battlefield to suit his purposes Corax has excelled in fighting guerrilla warfare his entire life.

Scenario 2
Both Konrad Curze and Corax are inside a football field, they are both to fight to the death

Night Haunter, assuming there is no escape and the two must fight. Corax did not believe he could defeat Night Haunter on the killing fields of Istvaan, nothing has really changed since that.

Scenario 3
Instead of the Lion with the Dark Angels battling Curze in their isolated sector war it is Corax and the Raven Guard, which legion wins the war? (Corax does not get the Deus Ex Machina that the Lion received)

Assuming this is post Istvaan, then the Night Lords would win. They outnumber the Raven Guard in legionaries and ships, they can bring overwhelming force against the Raven Guard ina lmost all engagements.

Not exactly the fairest of scenarios to be honest.

Scenario 4
Konrad Curze is tasked with killing the primarch of the Blood Angels, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Corax is tasked with killing the primarch of the World Eaters primarch, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Which primarch is successful, and or are both primarchs successful?

I think Corax has a better chance of being successful, if only because the World Eaters would be easier to manipulate than the Blood Angels. Ultimately I do not think that Night Haunter would be successful in taking out the lord of the Blood Angels.

Scenario 5
Konrad Curze and Angron versus Sanguinus and Corax in a fight to the death.

I think Corax and Sanguinius would defeat Angron and Night Haunter. As before, Angron would be easier to manipulate and Sanguinius is often considered amongst the best of the fighters amongst the primarchs.

Scenario 6
The Night Lords legion with that of the World Eaters engage versus the Blood Angels Legion and the Raven Guard. The fight is to see which team can eliminate the other team, the war takes place in the sector that the Night Lords fought the Dark Angels.

Again, Night Lords and World Eaters lose largely for the same reason as in the other scenario's. The ability to manipulate the World Eaters would cause them to take more losses than they would likely cause and both legions general inability to work together would likely be a hindrance. I can't imagine the World Eaters always showing complete restraint if the Night Lords got in their way.

 

[Lux]

Thank you for your response, and just to clarify I meant Corax post of Itsvaan.

However, I forgot to add that for scenario 3 Corax would get his full region pre-Istvaan (80k or so was its size).

I do disagree with the analysis that the World Eaters would be easy to manipulate, I think the Blood Angels are just as easily manipulated due to their innate aggression coupled with their tendency to give into their blood lust.

Horus along with Lorgar both postulated that their only hope of defeating Sanguinus in combat was with Angron (this was when Horus was still human, and not a living avatar of the chaos gods).

 

[darkreever]

However, I forgot to add that for scenario 3 Corax would get his full region pre-Istvaan (80k or so was its size).

Alright, with that in mind I believe the Raven Guard would come out victorious. As a whole their ships seemed better equipped when it came to stealth, giving them an advantage in being able to set up traps.

Both legions are fairly flexible, good at acting on the spot, but the Night Lords leadership has always appeared far more fractured than that of the Raven Guard.

I do disagree with the analysis that the World Eaters would be easy to manipulate, I think the Blood Angels are just as easily manipulated due to their innate aggression coupled with their tendency to give into their blood lust.

The difference is that this generally tends to apply to a much smaller number within the Blood Angels at a given time whereas the butchers nails effects the entire World Eaters and was often the cause of them abandoning tactics and suffering greater losses than necessary. It was also how Russ was able to defeat Angron during the Night of the Wolf (though he lost the duel, Russ's Space Wolves held off a numerically superior foe and could have removed their leader.)

Horus along with Lorgar both postulated that their only hope of defeating Sanguinus in combat was with Angron (this was when Horus was still human, and not a living avatar of the chaos gods).

Yes, this is true, but I believe that was more on one on one terms. Your scenario's aren't talking about that, its not Sanguinius vs Angron its Sanguinius and another vs Angron and another. To which I do not believe either loyalist primarch would engage Angron first.

 

[Lux]

Hmm I see your point in that the overall leadership of team loyalists could be the swaying factor in legion vs legion warfare for scenario 6 (mostly due to the World Eaters dragging the Night Lords down).

However, scenario 5 is a two team death match between the traitors and loyalist. This scenario I see the traitors winning, as Angron as well as Curze seem two of the best fighters out of the primarchs. Angron due to his martial ability augmented by the nails, and Curze due to his (as of unremembered empire) active precognition.

The one I am most undecided on is scenario 3, only because the way the novels described the war between the Night Lords and the Dark angels made it sound as though the Night Lords were increasingly winning. Particularly that some high ranked DA officers noted the Lion's composure fracturing due to his inability to defeat the Night Lords. Savage Weapons goes on to describe that for every world the Dark Angels took, the Night Lords took one back from them. That for every victory the Dark Angels attained, they were dealt an equal number of horrendous losses.

It just seems like many people underestimate the effectiveness of the Night Lords as a legion, they stalemated and arguably were defeating the Dark Angels in a legion versus legion war. I just feel that Corax's main strength which is stealth would be greatly nullified due to Curze being a master of it too, thus it would come down to frontal war with one another. The Night Lords are rumored to be at 130k while the RG is around 80k, I don't know if the RG will be able to cover a 50k difference through superiority of skill (arguable).

What do you think?

 

[MEQinc]

It was also how Russ was able to defeat Angron during the Night of the Wolf (though he lost the duel, Russ's Space Wolves held off a numerically superior foe and could have removed their leader.)

I find this claim pretty suspect. Russ' wolves didn't hold off the the WE, they are specifically stated to have been driven back (baring those who returned to help Russ). Also, if you're going to give credit to the Wolves for removing the WE leader you should give the WE equal credit, since Angron could've killed Russ.

To which I do not believe either loyalist primarch would engage Angron first.

Why do they get to choose? Is Angron just going to stand around while Sanguinious and Corax beat up on Night Haunter?

 

[Angel of Blood]

The Night Lords were not arguably winning the Thramas Crusade at all. It was a statement in every single way.

 

[Beaviz81]

I find this claim pretty suspect. Russ' wolves didn't hold off the the WE, they are specifically stated to have been driven back (baring those who returned to help Russ). Also, if you're going to give credit to the Wolves for removing the WE leader you should give the WE equal credit, since Angron could've killed Russ.

If memory serves (which it usually does) Leman Russ tried to capture Angron while Angron tried to kill him while his Space Wolves worked their way onto surrounding Angron while loosing more Space Marines than the World Eaters.

Why do they get to choose? Is Angron just going to stand around while Sanguinious and Corax beat up on Night Haunter?

That was actually quite funny, now I'm imagining Sanguinius and Corax beating up Hauler while Angron stands in the background making threatening postures like a baddie in a Bruce Lee-movie.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

Corax wasn't scared of facing Curze, the only Primarch he said he couldn't imagine beating was Angron. Corax fled the battle because A) he'd been fighting from the onset of the battle and Curze was fresh and B) He still had Lorgar to deal with and to take both of them would of cost him his own life and that of his legion which he wasn't willing to sacrifice.

 

[Lux]

Corax wasn't scared of facing Curze, the only Primarch he said he couldn't imagine beating was Angron. Corax fled the battle because A) he'd been fighting from the onset of the battle and Curze was fresh and B) He still had Lorgar to deal with and to take both of them would of cost him his own life and that of his legion which he wasn't willing to sacrifice.

Merely conjecture proposed by Corax to assuage his own wounded ego from running from Curze, the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him. The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand. Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run, and in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.

Corax was weak as well as tired, and he was unable to escape Curze's grasp. Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand. The only reason Corax escaped is because he burned the entirety of his remaining fuel in his jump pack to give him the inertia to escape Curze's overwhelming strength.

 

[Beaviz81]

I somehow thought Primarches didn't fear anything, but I can be wrong. Though I love reading how Corax now is a Ciaphas Cain-like being, that could actually be a good story when I think about it.

 

[Angel of Blood]

Merely conjecture proposed by Corax to assuage his own wounded ego from running from Curze, the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him. The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand. Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run, and in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.

Corax was weak as well as tired, and he was unable to escape Curze's grasp. Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand. The only reason Corax escaped is because he burned the entirety of his remaining fuel in his jump pack to give him the inertia to escape Curze's overwhelming strength.

And then just like that. I'm out again.

 

[Beaviz81]

And then just like that. I'm out again.

For no good reason :crazy: it tends to end that way when Lux write something here sooner rather than later.

 

[Lux]

And then just like that. I'm out again.

It can be hard to argue against sound logic, I understand you may leave.

 

[Jacobite]

It can be hard to argue against sound logic, I understand you may leave.

Yes it's your "sound logic" that is the reason why I, personally, no longer bother to post in this sub forum. Why bother using page references to back yourself up after all.

 

[Reaper45]

Yes it's your "sound logic" that is the reason why I, personally, no longer bother to post in this sub forum. Why bother using page references to back yourself up after all.

Oh come now, this is good practice for when you encounter these types of people in real life.

 

[Stig'sPrimarchCousin]

Ok I'll bite.

the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him.

False.

The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand.

Again false. Far stronger? Please. He WAS strained, the reason he has a 'calm' face during this scene is to make it seem that he's not. It plays right into the whole 'psychological warfare/instill fear' thing he goes for.

Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run

Again not true. He fled because he was heading to the areas of the battle which were most fierce (as stated by the enemy themselves) and to assist his men in escaping, he cared about keeping his legion alive.

in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.

No, he hated himself for letting Curze's parlor tricks get under his skin and for not staying and denying the enemy two commanders.

Corax was tired

Fixed.

he was unable to escape Curze's grasp.

And yet he did just that.

Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand.

He could have punched Curze in the face before he had a chance OR stopped his free claw with his other free hand(since only one was directed at Lorgar).

Have a nice day sir.

 

[hailene]

I'm on a trip, so I don't have my books handy, but doesn't it say in Deliverence Lost why Corax fled Curze?

It was because Corax saw a dark reflection of what he could have been if he had not been raised by the wise intellectuals on his homeworld. What a monster Curze was and how easily Corax may have become his equal in brutality if circumstances were just a little bit different.