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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wondering what new lore has been introduced into the 40K world now that the new "Khorne Codex" has come out. I thought it was interesting that in someways the Khorne army seems to work differently than we previously thought. I haven't read it yet, but at least with Kharn for example, it seems that he was not introduced in this codex because he doesn't work like the traditional Khorne army works.

Looking at the new army lists it seems that they work instrumentally. Again, it would be nice to know how the owners of the new codex feel about the new khorne army compared to the old. We've seen the hoard, unorganized, unrelenting force of Khorne, but we maybe seeing a true god of war look. Even in the Heresy, we have a concept of the Angron and the World Eaters as these crazy, unorganized, and unpredictable Khorne force that are a danger to their allies as much as their enemies.

It just got me thinking about whether Khorne really wanted Sanguinus and the Blood Angels to represent what Khorne really stood for. The concept of being a real war god that defeats his foes. I also wonder whether the conversion of Angron to Khorne's champion instead of Sanguinus really changed Khorne's influence in the galaxy, and perhaps made his following somewhat imperfect.

I think the new lore, rules, and concepts pave the wave for a good discussion or debate about what Khorne is about.
 

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When you consider how crazed and bloodmad the death company is, theres little difference between them and the bloodmad khorne berserkers. I recall there was a post heresy audiodrama where Amit the Flesh Tearer faces a khornate berserker and realizes how tiny the difference was between them.

Sanguinius was always in denial about his bloody side. Angron chose to embrace it, completely. The later completely embodying the ethos of Khorne. The blood god cares not from where the blood is spilled, just that it flows.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The Death Company to me is more of Khorne trying to infect or force upon the Blood Angels. I wonder how the Blood Angels would have faired without the curse but the embrace of Khorne.

Khorne is considered the Blood God, but like the other gods, he is much more than that. Could the Blood God be a reference to older fluff and/or weak and close-minded fanatics?

I was actually kind of surprised of the lack of activity. I thought that maybe the new codex would have a lot of newer fluff on Khornate Warbands and such. I really think the World Eaters are a very extreme of a particular side of Khorne, and I think many authors trying to write about Khorne and their daemons try to show something different.
 

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Critique for da CriticGod
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The fluff on Khorne has become increasingly one dimensional over the years. In the original realms of Chaos: slaves to darkness Khorne was a war god. His armies included heavy weapons and more varied tactics. Since then Khorne has become a singular god of mindless bloodshed.

I think the savage war god was a more interesting and compelling background piece, but the fluff as I know it doesn't support your reading. Khorne armies are described as wild disorganized mobs of murderers. They might have the presence of mind before a battle to do some planning, but once they are engaged thought goes out the window.

Of course, this also raises questions about how an army of bloodthirsty madmen could manage the complicated army logistics needed to run a campaign of any sort. Looks like a logical fallacy to me.

But hey, this is where we are now.
 

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Of course, this also raises questions about how an army of bloodthirsty madmen could manage the complicated army logistics needed to run a campaign of any sort. Looks like a logical fallacy to me.

But hey, this is where we are now.
Ha, i had not thought about that. Now all i can picture is a bunch of Khornate supply chain/logistics officers going fucking crazy and murdering people when inventory goes missing. Supplies for the supplies god!!
 

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Critique for da CriticGod
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That's hilarious! Rep'd!

Can you imagine any of the logistics officers in legions of the other gods?

I can imagine the line forming at the logistics desk in the Slaaneshi army to provide favors to get requisitions filled.
Or the tzeentchian logistics officer who hides, confuses, and obfuscates everything.
 

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lol!! The tzeentchian supply chain would be the best. Everything would end up where it was supposed to go but through the most unpredictable/unknowable path.

That actually makes me wonder, does the lore address who builds supply stuff for the traitor legions? Things like ammo even.
 

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there are lots of mechanicum planets. also, lots of world are simply heretics and trade/are enslaved by the chaos legions. SO many factories and artisans toil and produce for the downfall of man. Also, the khornate supply line is awesome. i'd rep you @GuiltySparc but it seems i must spread blah blah...you know.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Indeed current fluff has made Khorne one dimensional.

I guess a good question is whether Sanguinus would have really been the best avatar for Khorne, or whether it was simply Khorne trying to extend his reach with another good warrior. Is there a difference between mindless bloodshed and one who truly naturally loves it?

It was something I was trying to create with a Khorne army a few months ago. A concept of a purity of Khorne. There are those who follow the Chaos gods with a very simplistic and fanatical concept of their deity. However, in this case, I really wonder if Khorne is or is not a more complex identity of the warp. The warp has been described as so complicated that it can never really be understood. As such, it just seems strange that Khorne be the "Blood God" and thats pretty much it.

Thats kind of what I took from bits and pieces from what I have seen written about in the next codex. The fact that Kharn wasn't in the codex, hinted to me that his use of Khorne to be very one dimensional. I mean... its fricken Kharn, the representative of Khorne in the 40k gaming world for the last couple decades.
 

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As for any chaos gods, in GW lore, they are almost always portrayed in the easyest way to be understood. Also, never forget the average target customer is a 13-14 yo. I can't imagine a way simple enough to let him understand Tzeentch or Slaanesh unless using monothematic statical images. However, if we sum all the fluff and lore and hints we gets during the 40 years of GW history, we pretty much have a clear vision of Khorne as a violent, proud, contemptuous, angry, martial god. A sort of Mitra on meth. Is he the Blood God? Well, hell yes, it is. Is he the Warrior God? Hell yes. Is he the Collector of Skulls? Yes! Of all the more "subtle" aspects, however, in a grimdark and brutal galaxy, where a starship can obliterate a continent, the "Blood God" seems the most easy to worship and comprehend. KILL MAIM BURN!! In the end, it all goes down to that.
KILL THE WEAK! SLAY EVERYONE!! SKULLS!! MORE SKULLS FOR THE THRONE!!!
(in that...isn't Khorne, on his brazen throne, a sort of mockery of the Emperor? He wants skulls for his throne, while emperor wants psykers...both demand endless carnage of their enemies...funny thought...)
 

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The fluff on Khorne has become increasingly one dimensional over the years. In the original realms of Chaos: slaves to darkness Khorne was a war god. His armies included heavy weapons and more varied tactics. Since then Khorne has become a singular god of mindless bloodshed.

I think the savage war god was a more interesting and compelling background piece, but the fluff as I know it doesn't support your reading. Khorne armies are described as wild disorganized mobs of murderers. They might have the presence of mind before a battle to do some planning, but once they are engaged thought goes out the window.

Of course, this also raises questions about how an army of bloodthirsty madmen could manage the complicated army logistics needed to run a campaign of any sort. Looks like a logical fallacy to me.

But hey, this is where we are now.
If you take away the hamfisted GW Fluff approach (Slaanesh are all Perverts, Tzeentch are all nerdy kids who eventually snap from being bullied and go all Columbine and say "Just as planned", and Nurgle is the neckbeards popping their infected hair follicles), and instead look on it similar to the whole Primal Force like the Black Library Heresy series tried to put over, then Khorne turns from Crazed Madman to humanity reverting to its base instincts, its fight for survival, the person who'll fight with whatever he has to hand to survive, whether it's a chainaxe, broken bottle, hand or tooth or even a big rock, Nurgle is the fear of death and all the images that brings up; while Slaanesh is the sheer pleasure of life, and Tzeentch is the interaction of fate and chance and their intertwining nature in humanities life; especially in an age where science and logic is beginning to slowly replace the grip of ~15,000 years of superstition and belief in Skywizards.

Instead we get "oh he's tough, oh he's strong, oh he's fast, oh he's magical".



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....Supplies for the supplies god!!
Best quote I've heard in ages!!!! Khorne cares not where the supplies come from, only that the supplies flow! :)
 

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Critique for da CriticGod
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If you take away the hamfisted GW Fluff approach...
While I haven't read any of the Black Library books the more nuanced view of the chaos gods, and the mortal emotions which feed them is certainly out there. I think I have around a dozen chaos army books from the last 20 years of fantasy and 40K, and I'm positive some of them have this style writing.

Instead we get "oh he's tough, oh he's strong, oh he's fast, oh he's magical".
This is exactly what I was referencing and I agree 100%. Over the years GW have simplified the fluff a great deal.
Hmm. Maybe it's more fair to say the chaos fluff diverged, the fluff in the codices continued to be simplified while they made the fluff in the Liber Chaotica deeper. Of course most gamers don't have those books of chaos.
So that leaves most most fluff and most people's understandings set to "ham fisted and one dimensional."
A pity.
 

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Warsmith
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So that leaves most most fluff and most people's understandings set to "ham fisted and one dimensional."
A pity.
Absolutely. I do wish GW would put more time into the Fluff, but within the BL books there are very good and much more in depth looks at, well everything.

But back to the topic, I found the Fluff of the Codex:Deamonkin not to be that bad, at least it was on the same level as the whole current generation of Codex. And to be honest Codex's have been quite devoid of Fluff since 3rd edition.

I liked how they made them different from Codex Chaos Marines and how they described the organisation of Khorns Legions, and how the Slaugtercults are reflections of that organisation.

As for Logistics. Enternal War is Enternal Looting.
 

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Does anyone else find the number of Bloodthirsters rather absurd?

Yes the realms of chaos are vast but 8 + (8x8) + (8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8) = 19,173,960 which is around 19 for every imperial world. Assuming most of them are not interested in interacting with the galaxy, that's still a tad over the top, particularly with the uncountable Daemon Princes of Khorne as well...

I don't think whoever came up with this bit of lore had a calculator handy.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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Regarding the logistics of Khornate armies, deus ex machine is very much a thing in Warhammer 40k. Space Hulks, for instance, are vessels that technically are just drifting around in an unguided fashion, until they eventually arrive at an Imperial system to unload whatever horrors they are carrying. Orks make their technology (such as it is) work by force of will.

Given this, nothing about a Khornate frigate somehow chugging along despite any meaningful maintenance having been done to it in ten millennia (save for the plugging up of hull breaches with skulls and/or thrones) until it finally reaches an Imperial planet shocks me.
 

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I think the depiction of the Sanguinary Worlds' culture in the Gaunt's Ghosts series sheds some interesting light on the subject of how Chaos worship affects Chaos armies. Even though they all openly worship the Chaos gods (Khorne in particular with the Blood Pact), it doesn't seem like they're all running around completely insane or anything. They have an extremely well functioning logistical system (one that makes extensive use of daemons to move supplies from Point A to Point B), and their greatest military units are so effective because of how well disciplined they are. They might be crazy, but not crazy enough to commit tactical suicide by refusing to utilize ranged weapons.

Even the way they're depicted in a non-military sense breaks with what we usually imagine of Chaos. In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, occupied Gerreon certainly isn't the best place in the galaxy to live, but it's not like everyone is getting rounded up and murdered constantly. Life kind of goes on; you keep the same crappy job you had before, except now you're working for the glory of Khorne instead of the Emperor. If you keep your head down you'll be left alone. Show up for church once a week, make a show of piety, and then leave, that kind of thing.

All that leads me to wonder if MAYBE the Chaos Space Marines only worship the way they do is because of the whole "built for war" thing. Warfare is the only reason they exist, so it makes sense that the only aspects of the Chaos gods that matter to them is the "tough" or "fast" or "magicky" or "strong" parts. Whereas your "normal" Chaos-worshipping world probably venerates different aspects of the gods (Khorne as a noble warrior, Slaanesh as an artist, Tzeentch as a wise prophet, Nurgle as a loving parental figure), if all you ever do is shoot people in the face with a bolter, you're naturally going to have a one-dimensional view of whatever gods you worship.
 
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