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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just got a look at this formation.

Combat sucks, we know this, it's 7th edition. The weaknesses of being a combat army aren't outweighed. But if you're a diehard Khornate fighter based army, consider taking this detachment as an addition to the typical baseline.

Kharn, +4 CSM Space Marine Units with MoK, and 4 units of Zerkers. Comes in at 920 minimum.

It brings nothing new to the table, apart from MOAR death - not only do you get to double your attacks if you roll 8 (exactly, not 8 or more, higher than 7, just EXACTLY 8, Khorne's sacred number), then you get to double your attacks profile (so 8 attacks for Kharn, just saying), but each roll of 6 to attack with generates additional hits (which can also generate attacks provided you keep rolling 6's).

It's completely free, so if you're bringing Kharn and 20+ Marines and 20+ Zerkers, consider taking this formation.



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Problem is it just seems terrible on so many levels

I think you could make quite a good army with Kharn and berzerkers as your troops, but with two or three units of berzerkers maximum (in transports). Then almost everything else would have to be fast pressure units like bikes, maulerfiends, flesh hounds, maybe a bloodthirster etc.

If only the formation was something like Kharn and three or four units of berzerkers, with the formation allowing you to assault out of rhinos. As it is you'd pay a massive amount of points for units that are great at killing infantry but not much else
 

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Problem is it just seems terrible on so many levels

I think you could make quite a good army with Kharn and berzerkers as your troops, but with two or three units of berzerkers maximum (in transports). Then almost everything else would have to be fast pressure units like bikes, maulerfiends, flesh hounds, maybe a bloodthirster etc.

If only the formation was something like Kharn and three or four units of berzerkers, with the formation allowing you to assault out of rhinos. As it is you'd pay a massive amount of points for units that are great at killing infantry but not much else
But if you're playing a game for fun and your opponent isn't abusing your weaknesses it's not a big deal.
 

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But if you're playing a game for fun and your opponent isn't abusing your weaknesses it's not a big deal.
The problem is that it takes practically ZERO effort to abuse this "formation", Unless the CSM squads are taking melta guns to potentially offset any armor or MCs then you are pretty much boned.

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Side note, when did "formations" become so utterly huge for the minimum requirements?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I just... want back the formation of Huron's biker-horde of 5 squads of bikes that can assault after turbo-boosting. Alas, Apocalypse 2.0, you were too good to last...
 

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Vaz, in which book this formation has been printed? standalone?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I think it's an Advent Day formation, like Kranon's Hellguard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
The problem is that it takes practically ZERO effort to abuse this "formation", Unless the CSM squads are taking melta guns to potentially offset any armor or MCs then you are pretty much boned.

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Side note, when did "formations" become so utterly huge for the minimum requirements?
You do have another CAD though, which you can load up with AT. It probably isn't advisable for sub 2k games, but for a 165pt tax, you can pick around 800pts of AT up if you need. Like said, it is not Archangels or Adamantine Lance - but if you are taking 20+ zerkers and 20+ CSM anyway then it doesn't really cost you anything to use.

As for AT you have 4 meltagun, 4 combi melta, and 8 plasma pistol shots potentially. Not that shabby.



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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Care to explain why they are so bad for infantry? They are not Bikes, sure. But unless you are playing on a billiard table you should be able to protect your units adequately enough until they get to the target. They can put a decent hole in an enemy unit. They shred infantry, deal much more damage against MEQ's than their points suggest, and they can strip HP's from tanks or dreadnoughts which are hard counters for them.



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Entropy Fetishist
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I've been playing CSM melee lists for a while, and Infantry... are just too damn slow. If you want to shoot, that's a mere 6" per turn you're moving--if running, you're going to average 9-10" per turn. Eldar will kite you as long as they want, shredding you in a few turns with relative ease. Tau will bow you to smithereens long before you get close. Even things like... BA Vindis with overcharged engines and Baal Preds.

And if you're not playing on a billiard table, then you are even slower with difficult terrain tests, even if you occasionally get a 5+ or 4+ against AP3 shooting. So, slow, unless you spend an exorbitant number of points on up to 8 Rhinos, which still limit your assaults (which this formation is all about).

Plus you have the range falloff--beyond 12", your 4 melta, 4 combi-melta, and 8 plasma pistols are useless. That's at least 2 turns of your opponent totally untouched, shooting with impunity.

8 5-man infantry squads (plus as many extra minis and/or rhinos as you want to add points) might be verging on MSU, but they're slow, pretty fragile, and while they're decent at clearing light and medium infantry... they have extremely limited range shooting to do anything else at all. I'd rather be spending that 900+ points elsewhere.
 

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I'd rather be spending that 900+ points elsewhere
like, if we still want close combat, 10 khorne bikers with powerfist, 2 meltaguns, combimelta, icon of wrath and 2 x 5 nurgle spawns. wich cost about 70% the Kharne CAD...
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Oh hay, Eldar counter things. So do Tau.

Next argument please. Noone is going to be buying Rhinos for the list. That isn't the point of it. The meltas aren't there to dedicate tank killing, they are there to help strip HP's and get the odd splode. Not everything can improve on next codex.

Khorne is weak asf. Weakest god maybe. But themes for armies are there. And need help.

After all, look at deathleaper brood. It has won a GT IIRC. Many said it was useless.



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Rattlehead
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I know what's going to happen.

Someone'll paint up a themed force, real nice, or have an excuse to use their Berzerker army (let's say, for argument's sake, Wade Price, because his World Eaters look sweet). They bring it along to the FLGS. It's not a great list; it's got obvious weaknesses, but it looks great, and it has a strong theme. I go along. Fate splits into two strands. The first is that I bring my Blitz Brigade 'competitive' Orks, stomp his face in horribly; rolling dice to remove his models off the table for a couple of hours while awkwardly trying to make it seem like I'm not totally dominating him in the game. The second is that I bring my GK army - all Terminators, maybe a Dreadknight or two but certainly no vehicles. Perhaps a detachment of Steel Legion or Space Wolves. It's a good list, sure, because I've bought things that are strong, but the Grand Master's got a bunch of unnecessary toys and the weapons are a fairly even mix of Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators rather than the alternative list, which are all Psycannons. We recreate a small part of the First War for Armageddon, enjoying an afternoon and while I have the advantage, it's not a landslide victory or defeat for either of us.

Leave the competitive play in the competitions, guys, where it belongs.
 

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Thinking about this more, three things about the formation really annoy me.

1. Berzerkers as troops for a WE army is something that could really have used a boost, and this formation is a let down.

2. Despite paying all of those points for themed troops you still need to take another HQ and two troop choices to make the overall list battleforged. Two more units of berzkers and a khorne lord? Probably not, so you'd most likely be forced into making an unbound list at that point.

3. Why berzekers and khorne marked CSMs? I can't imagine taking both at the same time. I'd take berzerkers as my only troops if I was going to stick very strictly to a World Eaters army, and if I wanted to improve the list and be more points efficient I'd likely run all of my troops using the berzerker models as khorne chaos marines. With a mix of both units I'd feel like the berzerkers and chaos marines have to be different models to differentiate them- and then how would I model the chaos marines?

The formation should have been Kharn and three of four units of eight berzerkers
 

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JUGGERNUT
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At the annoying risk (sorry, gents) of posting this list in 3 places, I thought it could be a decent enough way of utilizing the formation, though not competitive whatsoever.

With lucky rolls Huron can infiltrate or outflank the 3 footslogging units of Berzerkers, who will probably attack from the same flank to make use of the Fire Raptor's legacy. With 3 guns firing at separate targets, I can't think of a better way to pack that many S6/7 shots into the list. FNP for the zerkers at least gives them a slightly higher chance of surviving small arms fire.

Kharn and 5 buddies in the dreadclaw for a turn 2 assault. Cheaper than a Land Raider, but has its own problems. A bad scatter or Daemonic Possession roll could waste the unit entirely. But Kharn can take out whatever he needs to, if pulled off properly.
 
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