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My argument this entire time has been that none of the claims that the Dark Angels army is rendered unplayable by [Combat Squads/Having to change my intertactics/NOSIXPLAZLAZBULLSHAT (pick one)]. That the codex looks fine to me has just been a point for the less fanatical posters. It doesn't take a massive reading session to invalidate a stupid claim, and that's all I've been doing. Anything else you thought you read is paranoia

Also, a massive reading sessions is not the only reading session. Spending an hour or so three times with the codex is more than enough to be competent enough to dismiss bullshitty claims.

I don't give a flying fuck what you think about the codex, so long as your own opinion is based on something other than ZOMFG NO FUCKING SIXPLAZLAZ MY INTERNET TACTICS ARE RUINED GW HAS RUIONED THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO OTHER UNITS IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING CODEX AND THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO WAY TO USE THE NEW RULES TO MAKE A UNIT THAT IS PLAYABLE I'M GOING TO FUCKING KILL MYSELF.

If i had said a single fucking thing about any argument other than the above, you may just have a minute shard of a point.

I haven't submitted any real tactics of my own simply because I don't particularly feel the need to, since the players more used to the Dark Anels playstyle will do a more in-character job. However, because I haven't written a fifty page strategy guide doesn't mean that I can't dismiss the morornic claims of a bunch of morons too uncreative to come up with a tactic of their own. These people probably haven't even read the fucking codex in some cases, convinced as they are that it is worthless, so having looked at it and considered the options I probably am more qualified than them, but that's uncertain, and as such I never used it as a premise, despite your heroically singleminded insistence that it is.

Long story short, if it wasn't moronic bullshit about the lack of sixplaslas squads, then I wasn't talking about it. Since your entire argument is based on the premise that I was dismissing real opinions and real arguments, backed up with real evidence and real playtime, it doesn't apply.

Are we done here? Can we get back to discussing whatever positives and negatives actually exist within the codex yet?
 

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It certainly won't. There will always be people whose need to win is so overwhelming that no sacrifice is too little. They're just getting cranky now because they have to change tactics.
The main isue seems to be that certain people, notably the particularly loud section of the gaming population, feel insulted that a new codex requires them, in an atrocious crime against gamers everywhere, to actually change the force composition they've carefully min-maxed via the Internet.
These people probably haven't even read the fucking codex in some cases, convinced as they are that it is worthless,
So, thats what you've argued. Mostly trolling against anyone who has a different opinion than you. Nothing about las/plas being mentioned, just unsupported assumptions, personal attacks and, wait, nothing of substance to back up your claims other than "I say it is, so it is."

I don't give a flying fuck what you think about the codex, so long as your own opinion is based on something other than ZOMFG NO FUCKING SIXPLAZLAZ MY INTERNET TACTICS ARE RUINED GW HAS RUIONED THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO OTHER UNITS IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING CODEX AND THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO WAY TO USE THE NEW RULES TO MAKE A UNIT THAT IS PLAYABLE I'M GOING TO FUCKING KILL MYSELF.

If i had said a single fucking thing about any argument other than the above, you may just have a minute shard of a point.
OK, show me a couple of arguments listed on this forum that bang on about 6-man las/plas as the be all and end all and thats why DA are rubbish and you might actually have a shard of a point. Can you?

Just a disclaimer: I don't actually care about DA, but I am bothered by mindless trolling, hence my posts in this thread.
 

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And I for one am getting tired of the both of you sniping at each other. This is a discussion about the DA codex and its pros/cons and NOT about each other validity in expressing opinions. You both have your opinions and are both entitled to them and expressing said opinions in this thread is a fine thing. Drop the personal arguement and get back on topic which is the validity of the codex, NOT which of you is more entitled to his opinion. Sorry if this seemed heavy handed but I have no desire to see a good thread turn into a battle of wits. Warning has been served.
 
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to be honest, i dont care if you cant min max. im just disappointed with some of the changes. combat squads are cool, but did they really have to make it so you can only buy them in 5 or 10 man squads? why not just give the bonus if you take 10? im not a fan of mandatory frag and krak grenades either. the increase in price for the dread and annihilator are kind of dumb. that was basically to sell more minis, they take the common units, de power them, and make it so you have to buy new ones. they do it all the time. its not always about balance its about sales. the drop of cost for the rhino and increase for drop pod was really about balance, not sales. i like the ravenwing squads and termi squads. im not happy with the HQs. i also still have serious problems with the layout of the new dexs. as long as the rest of the codices arent like this, ill be happy. im just worried about things to come. the old DA were a joke. they were vanilla marines that got bonuses, i mean intractable wasnt that big of a penalty, and they were the only ones who got plasma cannons in tac squads. they had the wings, but otherwise they werent all that unique. so its good they are different now, but are they too different?

basically im not happy, i really wish gw would stop taking baths in money and start caring about the game. i mean ending the CA articles and FAQs was dumb. honestly a lot of the space marine traits were just ideas thought up in CA. it was great to have new optional rules, army lists, and frequent FAQs.
 

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but did they really have to make it so you can only buy them in 5 or 10 man squads? why not just give the bonus if you take 10
Well yeah, im sure it was intentional to stop minmaxing. Otherwise people would just stick with there standard 5/6 man Las/plas squads
im not a fan of mandatory frag and krak grenades either.
Why would you be against it? its free and with the bolt pistol it makes the squads more versatile. It fits with the marines fluff.
the increase in price for the dread and annihilator are kind of dumb
Hows it dumb to increase the points cost of underpriced units?
 

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I agree with Jig about the grenades. Hell I would love it if my Chaos marines came with those as to me that is just something all marines should have, fluffwise. Hell, look at our modern day fighting forces and you won't see many of them going without a flashbang or grenade of some kind. Like Jig said, it fits the fluff and to me that is a good thing. Too many rules in this game don't fit the fluff or even come close to it and that kinda sucks.

What were the average costs of the dread and pred before compared to now? Can't comment at all on the price change before knowing that.
 

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Have to disagree about Dreadnoughts being undercosted- they're awful. Too slow, too lightly armoured, too big a priority target to survive.

For even more cost....I'll pass.
 

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Have to disagree about Dreadnoughts being undercosted- they're awful. Too slow, too lightly armoured, too big a priority target to survive.

For even more cost....I'll pass.
Have to agree with Jeridian on that one, you could always add an overcosted pod Into the deal! :p
 

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Dreadnaughts are not too bad or too good.
They are just good against certain armies.

Tau, forget about them. Tyranids, take them any day.

It’s all about what you face. Strength 10 weapons make a mockery of a dread any day, at least in a fire fight.

The problem as I see it with the DA version is the higher cost for Lascannon.
This makes the dread a one trick pony, as many other things in the DA list.
 

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However Jeridans opinion i'm guessing is playing ukgt style games where escalation is in affect 50% of the time. Therefore the assault cannon is then not the ultimate weapon it usually is. However if you look at the standard dred for marines, you get a weapon that is a better tank hunter than a lascannon and one of the best anti-infantry weapons in the game. Also it costs the same as 6 marines with a lascannon. But can move and shoot, has a str10 powerweapon and a reasonable AV. Sure the Pred gives out more firepower overall plus is more survivable, but the fact dreds take up an elite slot deserves honourable mention. I'm sure most who have been to the UKGT have seen the armoured lists that consist of 3 preds 3 dreds 3 landspeeders and 2/3 razorbacks. Powerful list.

If dreds are crap why are they a high target priority? For its points what else gives you such a versatile move and fire heavy weapon?

Overcosted Pod? I'm guessing thats a joke? As it stand with Vanilla 30pts is laughable for what is argueabley one of the best transports in the game.
 

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As a Chaos player, I would take a 30pt Drop Pod any day of the week! Oh and Jig, Dreads aren't so much high priority as they are easy to kill and you might as well get it over with right away so you can move on to more important things. IMHO anyway :)
 

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Oh and Jig, Dreads aren't so much high priority as they are easy to kill and you might as well get it over with right away so you can move on to more important things. IMHO anyway
Agreed. They're generally something to go for when the pred's can't see you and the speeders have been shaken for a turn as you've got a damn good chance of killing it with most AT weapons. Otherwise pretty much ignore it. Vens are harder mind.
 

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anathema said:
Oh and Jig, Dreads aren't so much high priority as they are easy to kill and you might as well get it over with right away so you can move on to more important things. IMHO anyway
Agreed. They're generally something to go for when the pred's can't see you and the speeders have been shaken for a turn as you've got a damn good chance of killing it with most AT weapons. Otherwise pretty much ignore it. Vens are harder mind.
There are just too many things in the game that can take them down now.
I think walkers would have been much more desirable in the game if they'd allowed them cover saves rather than obscured rule.

a sort of halfway stage between vehicle and MC.
 

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Maybe I'm missing something (which wouldn't be the first time).

I'm building a DA army, and I don't have a single Lascannon in it. The loss of the old 96'er (6 man las/plas) just didn't enter into the equation.

I can field very cheap Predators, lots of meltas/multi meltas/melta bombs. I can also find ways to get side shots with Plasma all the while having 14 scoring units.

Then, thanks to the no ally type rule not being present, I can take a cheapo Inquisitor with Emperor's Tarot to help increase my chances of getting first turn. This would allow me to get the 1st turn shooting/assault on troops, and more importantly vehicles who haven't moved yet (Mech players worst nightmares).

For me, I looked at the codex as a player of 4th edition. I've found what wins me games is being more mobile than my opponent. I don't want stationary guns. I want as much move and fire as possible. This entitles me to work out LOS to not get shot back at while being able to secure objectives.

To be fair, however, I'm still very much in the air how I'd deal with a true horde army. I rarely face them, but when I do, I don't think I've got enough in the army to handle it.

I haven't built a Marine army since 1st edition. This codex finally got my interest piqued enough to do so.
 

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Sarigar said:
For me, I looked at the codex as a player of 4th edition. I've found what wins me games is being more mobile than my opponent. I don't want stationary guns. I want as much move and fire as possible. This entitles me to work out LOS to not get shot back at while being able to secure objectives.
Agreed. This is why Tau are able to do as well as they do simply because they can be so mobile it can be downright scary sometimes.
 

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For me, I looked at the codex as a player of 4th edition. I've found what wins me games is being more mobile than my opponent. I don't want stationary guns. I want as much move and fire as possible. This entitles me to work out LOS to not get shot back at while being able to secure objectives.
Agreed absolutely. Mobility and firepower are the buzz words of 4th Ed- if you have one and not the other your in for trouble.

Wandering off on a side tangent here but many of us that disliked the DA Codex never mentioned 6xman las/plas (this was brought by pro-DA Codex players as a strawman argument for them to argue against).

Frankly it is just as easy to create a highly mobile firepower SM army- cheaper Tornados, cheaper Predators, cheaper plasmaguns, Fury, Terminator Command Squads, cheaper drop pods, cheaper Fists, etc.

The only way to make the DA Codex worth taking over SM's is to deliberately choose not to take much plasma, or assault cannons, or fists, or Tornados, or lascannons, etc.

Which leaves- cheap transports, autocannon Predators.

Like this for example:

I can field very cheap Predators, lots of meltas/multi meltas/melta bombs. I can also find ways to get side shots with Plasma all the while having 14 scoring units.
From a purely competitive view your telling me it's a good thing that you have to navigate into the side arc of vehicles with lower strength weapons rather than hit the front with lascannons.
(From a gaming view it may be a good thing as it makes it more challenging for you, but that's not the tournament/balance stance).

Then, thanks to the no ally type rule not being present, I can take a cheapo Inquisitor with Emperor's Tarot to help increase my chances of getting first turn. This would allow me to get the 1st turn shooting/assault on troops, and more importantly vehicles who haven't moved yet (Mech players worst nightmares).
This is true, the Scouting Bikers is one of the DA's few new tricks. Coupled with 1st Turn Termies it may be useful- but if one tiny thing doesn't go your way (terrain, deployment, first turn, etc) your screwed. And it is a one-trick pony- you either win turn 1 or you don't.
 

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From a competitive sense, it depends (straddling the fence, I know). Locally, we play with a fair amount of terrain, so it is not unheard of to be able to hide multiple vehicles from 1st turn shooting. Additionally, my Ravenwing units will be placed after my opponent's heavy armor (typically), so I will be able to get a decent lane of attack.

Having said that, if you play with slightly less terrain where you can draw LOS to vehicles 1st turn, I'll concede that the trusty lascannon is a good way to go.

The army appears it will be fragile. This is something I'm really looking into. It seems better to take 2 landspeeders instead of single units as you need to kill both to get VP's and non scoring status (or immobilize both). Another option was lots of 3 man Ravenwing bike squadrons. I can still take the cheapish Attack Bike, but lose the expensive Land Speeder (doesn't seem like a big loss to me)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking at the Dark Angels to be the next Iron Warrior tourney army-it simply isn't. But, I definitely see potential as a competitive army against many of the armies out there.

Plus, I'm anxiously awaiting my new Dark Angels Dreadnought from FW as it just looks freakin' sweet (yeah, I'm not a total power-gamer) :wink:
 

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My DA list has two units of:

3xBikes- 2xMeltas. 1xAttack Bike- Multi-melta.

GW has gone out of their way to dick the usual SM suspects (6xman las/plas, Tornados, assault cannons in general).

So rather than try to mimic a SM list (by trying to cram Tornados in, 10xman las/plas) and failing miserably we might as well try something else.

The sad truth is though, that multi-meltas, autocannons, bikes, Rhinos etc aren't taken in SM armies for a good reason, and this still applies (though less) to DA.


Basically I don't want and never said DA should be IW's equivalent.
But they should at least be SM equivalent- they are not.
 
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