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It seems to me that the sheer amount of discussion/argument on the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of DA is VERY stimulating and will have an effect on the game. (as much of an effect that ONE codex can cause anyway)

....we havent seen this much disagreement on the effectiveness of codeii in a long time, I find it really interesting.
 

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...we havent seen this much disagreement on the effectiveness of codeii in a long time, I find it really interesting.
Personally I think It's mainly down to the fear that every other codex will follow suit and get slapped with the nerf stick! :shock:
:wink:
 

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Its almost like they've decided Rogue Trader was a lot les power gamey and are making an effort to bring new armies in line with 40K's original design.

I think it'll just be a matter of time for people to warm to the new dex. The powerful combos are probably still there, just not as obvious to first readings.
 

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It's clear to me that the main problem is not with balance or power or things like that, since everyone against the change has argued it differently. The main isue seems to be that certain people, notably the particularly loud section of the gaming population, feel insulted that a new codex requires them, in an atrocious crime against gamers everywhere, to actually change the force composition they've carefully min-maxed via the Internet. All but a few of the "DA are useless now!!!!!!" posts boil down to this, inevitably wrapped in a slightly whiney complaint about Combat Squads. There's been next to no proper discussion over what's better and what's worse that hasn't been tainted by this egotism, so there hasn't been an informed consensus on precisely what happened to the power level of Dark Angels. In a few months, when the complainants have changed armies, the proper gamers have changed lists, and the results tested properly in high-level competition, I expect a proper and relatively correct consensus on the power level of the codex to form.

It is, after all, exactly what happened to Codex: Eldar, albeit replacing the words Combat Squad with No Craftworlds.
 

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In a few months, when the complainants have changed armies, the proper gamers have changed lists, and the results tested properly in high-level competition, I expect a proper and relatively correct consensus on the power level of the codex to form.
Everyone knows how SM's play and how their units perform within a competetive environment. With the new Eldar codex new stats and units were Introduced which made players look long and hard Into different combinations to make a succesful list rather than relying on the 'std' Seer council, SC, Wraithlord and Ranger spam. Looking at the new DA's all that has changed Is the Introduction of the combat squad doctrine along with a lot of un-justified price Increases, therefore It's fairly simple for an experienced SM player to see the overall picture,
Looking forward to these so-called competetive lists....
Good luck! :wink:
 

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LongBeard said:
Looking forward to these so-called competetive lists....
a cinic would say they've geared DA to be ravenwing at competative level.
just look at the battleforce for confirmation.

They sold the terminators now lets shift the bikes! :lol:

I can't wait for the BA jump pack army that'll probably hit the shelves. :roll:
 

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I've talked to some of our group who have been DA players since 2nd ed and have been nothing but happy with the new dex. One of them won our latest tourney last weekend with them pretty easily.
 

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blkdymnd said:
I've talked to some of our group who have been DA players since 2nd ed and have been nothing but happy with the new dex. One of them won our latest tourney last weekend with them pretty easily.
I've been waiting for these changes since the start of 2nd Ed. I've even gone so far as to order a whole new army. :lol:

Now if we could just move away from vehicle damage tables again...

I've noticed the main complaint seems to be that gamers want the Dark Angels to be Vanilla marines in all respects. (so why not use vanilla marines???) :roll:

I'm glad they've made a difference between the forces as not as many people will be willing to try new methods. (Loss of termi heavy weapons and Tornado numbers being the main two.)

I'm just waiting for the other armies to be toned down to see how many gamers will claim DA are too powerful. :lol:
 

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I like it, but as far as I can tell it is hit with the "nerfstick".

But we do get some crazy competitive bikes, combined with terminators they could prove quite good.

But if you don't want to play DA with Deathwing or Ravenwing you are better to rethink your decision. And this is what I fear; an army that is too static and only plays well in on formation.

So they aren't the most powerful army, big deal!
My belief is that this is "the things to come", so I don't expect BA or SW to be any better.

But I am a bit blown of that it looks like most DA armies will be geared the same way.
 

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The main isue seems to be that certain people, notably the particularly loud section of the gaming population, feel insulted that a new codex requires them, in an atrocious crime against gamers everywhere, to actually change the force composition they've carefully min-maxed via the Internet. All but a few of the "DA are useless now!!!!!!" posts boil down to this, inevitably wrapped in a slightly whiney complaint about Combat Squads. There's been next to no proper discussion over what's better and what's worse that hasn't been tainted by this egotism, so there hasn't been an informed consensus on precisely what happened to the power level of Dark Angels.
Thats a pretty high horse you're on, sure you can breath up there?

Its funny, but most of the posts I've seen decrying the new DA are based on the increased cost vs. Vanilla marines, the next-to-useless mandatory upgrades and wargear (is a 5-man lascannon squad likely to need frag and krak and a bolt pistol?) and the restrictions in choice that have been made.
From what I've heard it pretty much pushes you in the direction of going Ravenwing/Deathwing to the exclusion of a lot of the rest if you want to make it competitive. If you like the old style of DA, you're at a disadvantage compared to normal marines purely on paying points for stuff you don't want or not getting anywhere near the advantages that codex marines can take.
I'm sure some competitive builds are in there and there are hidden depths, but the major complaints seem to be that instead of making them marines plus more options and styles, they made them Raven/Deathwing minus decent marines.
I see what they tries to do, in making the DA have a different style, but there's no need to get rid of the option to use them as normal marines. Hell, the lack of access to traits would have been enough to make them worse in options but still feasible as good line troops.
 

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There's a difference between claiming that the new codex makes them weaker thus far in a calm and reasoned manner, albeit without any long-term gaming experience, and saying that they've been ruined and tournament players will flee from them in droves. The former is fine, since discussion is always welcome, but the latter does nothing to help anybody.

Since I don't actually have a DA codex, I haven't had the time to ake a long look at it, but it seems to me that if you want basic marines, you've got plenty of potential. Get ten man units, split them up into either a Las unit and a melta unit, or a fire support unit and an objective taking unit, or even a Heavy unit and an assault unit with a Veteran Fist. Use the heavy half to cover the light half as it takes an objective, then advance. The new infantry may not be as killy, but they have the cold, clinical objective completing skills that are so damn appropiate for their host army. Since hese guys aren't your main source of firepower, take Devastators, who are brutally good with this upgrade, to do the killing at range, and Veteran or Command Squads to kill things up close if you absolutely have to. Predator Destructors are cheaper, from what I hear, so take advantage of their excellent anti-infantry firepower. You also have the Mortis for any unfulfilled shooting desires.

This codex seems to run in a very different direction to its predeccesor, which is good. It seems to be a matter of changing from using min-maxed Troops as your main source of firepower to split squads as your objective achievers, and using the cornucopia of other options to do the heavy killing.
 

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I then suggest you take a long look at the codex and then you will see that some of the things we complain about are actually true ;)

I say that in theory and some what in practice what you proclaim is true.

But a big fact is that with the current rule set DA have a limited and often much more expensive way to get heavy weapon support.

And compared to vanilla marines we get fewer options for characters and vet sgts.
That makes the army less fun to play, as it will have a tendency to stay static as a list.
 

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OK i'm going to jump in here and add fuel to the fire.

I think DA have th epotential to be competative. Lets look at the evidence

Ravenwing bikes having the scout move. So they start in escalation and get a 12" move before the game. So can Charge first turn. Potentially Very good as bikes are pretty tough to dislodge for armies not geared for cc[guard/tau].

Ravenwing have Teleport homers and scout. 1/2 your Deathwing can DS on thefirst turn. Ravenwing scout 12" termies teleport within 6" therefore up to 18" on. Side armour shots first turn, or overwhelm one flank. The ravenwing first turn assault can then block most return fire at the Deathwing.

Preds and Razorbacks: Yes Lascannons are more expensive, but the other options are cheaper. This means you can take a fair amount of armour, albiet not the "optimal" builds, for very few points comparatively. More scoring units, give opp more target priority issues as they need to think if its even worth taking out as cheaper than normal.
Rhino's: Rhino's Cheaper: Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee! although EA is a tad expensive Maybe Rhino mounted squads would be worth taking? Rapid fire bolters Can be very affective when used properly.

Maybe they aren't as straight forward as standard marines or BA where you can throw in 3-6 lascannons and 3-6 assault cannons and know you can deal with pretty much anything
 

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A marine army to have to think about to play omg! :shock:
Heh, anyways i see a very large fast army meant for overwhelming quickly, from what ive seen you try to hunker down with DA, its just not their style, its almost like a semi horde marine army... maybe thats why people have their doubts?
 

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Personally, and I can't seem to say this enough times, I love the new DA codex. Yes, it makes a DA build of "standard" marines a bit substandard, but I don't care, I already have "standard" marines (my Mantis Warriors) which I use in a standard build. I don't want to rebuild them in a darker green.

Now, ignoring the *wing combinations (because there are ten companies in the Dark Angels, not two), what have you got?

Well, unfortunately, a lot of the nice high strength, armour-defeating stuff is more expensive, and more difficult to get hold of, so tank-busting and MC-defeating is always going to be trickier. However, the combat squads adds a welcome piece of flexibility to the list, rhinos are cheap, making a bolter-based squad a very viable unit. Add in the extraordinarily cheap predators (no upgrades), and you have at least the start of something. You are going to have to take (I think) some ravenwing speeders to deal with tanks/MCs, and you're going to have to box clever with those. I also, personally, really like the veterans. 2 attack marines for only five points more? Very nice.

The only thing I don't really like is I'm not too struck on any of the HQ selections. The new psychic powers are a bit naff (I don't like the variability of hellstorm, though force barrier can be very, very funny), I've got vet sgts everywhere so rites of battle is a bit useless, and I've never really liked chaplains much. Samael seems to have opinion divided down the middle, so maybe I'll give him a go (though without any ravenwing squads :))
 

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Yeah HQ is a bit Meh. I think Samael has got potential, but its not nice to have to have a special character as your hq. A chaplain seems like the best choice IMO
 

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Since I don't actually have a DA codex
Let me get this straight, we who have seen and read the DA Codex, have tried to make decent lists out of it....we're not allowed to come to the conclusion that they have been significantly nerfed (unless you trade in your Tacticals for Bikes £££$$$) in comparison to SM's.

Yet you who haven't even seen it can jump on the high horse and proclaim us all whingers and power gamers for speaking out.


...rich.
 

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Now if you actually read the post instead of finding the most flimsy sentence that, taken out of contxt, could possibly justify you whining and thus somehow imply by connotation that I'm wrong, and the only person in the entire universe who disagrees with you, you might have actually known that what I said was that I do not own it, not that I have not read it in great detail. I have not at down with it and a calculator for a few hours, but that never stopped me from making powerful lists before. You specifically haven't displayed a single piece of evidence in favour of your overblown premise, nor anything that could possibly counter my own. Yet somehow, because I didn't pay money for a codex I wasn't going to read more than a few times, I am magically losing this argument.

Of course, there comes the issues created by you not actually reading a word I said. First off, you'll notice that, instead of calling everyone who said the Dark Angels had decreased in power whiny powergamers unjustifiably, much like you taking an impossible conclusion from an argument that should never produce it and using it to justify your own extrmeely tenuous position, I instead looked at the arguments in general, and found that while those who were capable of looking at the entire codex and drawing up all their options to determine power in all aspects, that a huge number of people simply become affixed to the fact that they cannot use the most efficient layout from another codex, and are affronted that they actually have to change their lists. These people have become quite visible, since they are completely unable to make any concessions that there may just be a playable unit in the list, and will never use anything to support it but the lack of sixPlasLas.

Since the only reason this observation should offend you is if you are one of them, perhaps you should create an argument that is valid, well-structured, and incorporates the whole codex into it and use that to justify your outrageous claims, insteads of simply screaming NO SIXPLAZLAZ ZOMG DA CODEX IS FUXXORED. Since you haven't done the latter yet, I can only hope your intention is the former.
 

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Kinda have to agree with uber, true i havent looked at the codex more then twice, but alot of this stuff is listening to the arguements and taking it into context, its no reason to jump all over him, or just repeat the same thing, give evidence like how you've used DA and how its fallen short, anything can look great or crappy on paper, but thats just paper, back up with how you've actually preformed, and not just one time you've done horrible or amazing, a few times, since the game is based on dice and can be random, but because of strategy and the human componets as well as the codex component there is a trend somewhere, so back it up with something of that sort
and NOTE! i am not saying anyone is wrong or right based on the arguement i am only making a statement that sitting around saying things are useless or underpowered is pointless, hell there could be a ballanced way to run the army thats how its suppost to run or works well that no one has tried yet because of power lists and see'ing DA flaws in the ability for the standard power lists, think out of the box
Of course this is all my opinion and ideas so take it or leave it :lol: w/e you choose
 

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Since I don't actually have a DA codex, I haven't had the time to ake a long look at it,
you might have actually known that what I said was that I do not own it, not that I have not read it in great detail. I have not at down with it and a calculator for a few hours, but that never stopped me from making powerful lists before.
So you haven't had time to take a long look at it, but you have read it in great detail despite not actually having sat down and tried to write a good list with it. :roll:
This obviously makes you valid to criticise the arguments of others who have actually done this, despite you not having given any detailed concrete arguments to support your position.

So regardless of the self contradiction, your entire argument that DA are peachy is based on reading others arguments, making wild assumptions about their personalities and wilfully ignoring the detailed arguments that have been put across, such as points and style comparisons in order to attack these mythical DA powergamers.

How about you write a post that actually details tactics, unit comparison/uses and overall army building tips rather than just posting "Hurr! Powergamers can't figure it out, (but, er, neither can I yet as I haven't detailed why its so good) thats why its great!" Then you might actually look like you have a tenable position to argue from.
 
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