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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Jumping back into 40K after 4-5 years isn't as easy as I thought. With a new rule book and codex to learn I'm just not sure as to the exact army I want to field. It's got to be SM of course as those are the models I have, just not sure if I should go with a Raven Guard successor chapter or Ultramarine successor chapter. I guess it comes down to how their chapter tactics work with the units I already have.

Below is a list of what I available to field in my army. I'm not locking in all the details/upgrades as I'm not sure what will work best with what I currently have. So any help molding this list into something respectable would be great.

HQ
Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike (I love the model)
Chaplain w/JP (I love JPs too)
SM Chapter Master or Captain (AOBR model)
Command Squad

TROOPS
2x Tactical Squad (5-10 SM) w/Rhino (or Razorback)

FAST ATTACK
2x Assault Squad (5-10 SM)

ELITES
Terminator Squad
Dreadnought (AOBR model)

I'm currently in the process of finishing up a 10 man Scout Squad as well, just not sure what weapons to model them with. Got Sergeant Telion to paint as well.

I'm also in the market to purchase a new squad or model. Painting has always been fun to me and painting a new squad or model will get me back into 40K even faster.

Thanks in advance to any tips or suggestions.
 

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You have units that could work well with either chapter tactics, i don't think it makes too much difference which you choose in the end.

Don't forget if you like both armies you could do half ultras and half raven guard. With the allies rules in 6th you can field 2 separate detachments of marines together :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am leaning towards Raven Guard (well a successor chapter) but just wasn't sure if the units I had work work best with that type of army.

I mean I have Shrike, who just looks bad ass. I can even field him as a Chapter Master/Captain kitted out the same way as Shrike. Not sure if that's smart idea but I can find that out later.

Also I love jump packs, hence the Chaplain with one and the two Assault Squads.

I assume the two Tactical Squads would be the scoring units in my army. Just not sure if they should be in Rhinos or Razorbacks and how/if I should combat squad them.

The Scouts I have fit the fluff of Raven Guard better too just not sure how to use them in the best way yet.

I really don't think I'd field them as 2 separate detachments. I like having one army at the moment but when I do feel the need to paint SM another color scheme that may be a great option.
 

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Jumping back into 40K after 4-5 years isn't as easy as I thought. With a new rule book and codex to learn I'm just not sure as to the exact army I want to field. It's got to be SM of course as those are the models I have, just not sure if I should go with a Raven Guard successor chapter or Ultramarine successor chapter. I guess it comes down to how their chapter tactics work with the units I already have.
Well, it really depends on what you want out of 40k: Are you into the fluff, do you just like the models or do you just enjoy the gaming side the most? Or like most people, is it a mix of all 3?

Personally, I am the type who spends hours lost reading about the background online, and reading the novels, especially the Horus Heresy novels...
All of my armies I fell in love with whilst reading about them in novels and fluff. I am reading Deliverance Lost at the moment - the story of the Raven Guard during the heresy - and this is a major reason why I have chosen Raven Guard as an allied detachment to my Salamanders. Not sure if you have read it or not, but i'd say when you are choosing a Space Marine army (or Chaos Space Marines for that matter) you should read their Horus Heresy book to get an idea of what they are really about and if they speak to you. That would be my starting point if I was in your position.

Of course, actually playing the game is important to most people too, so once you have found an army you really dig in terms of storyline and character, you've got to then decide if they play to your tastes as well, so that you will enjoy this aspect of the hobby too.

I personally feel the Space Marine codex - for the most part - does a fantastic job with chapter tactics at playing a chapter to their character and fluff: GW may be completely uninterested in play testing units to create balance (but to be honest, they make it clear in the rulebook this game is about forging a narrative these days, not balanced or competitive play...), but I think with the codex they have done a stellar job with playing chapters to their backgrounds.

So with that in mind:
Raven Guard: Despite most the internet bitching about how crap the RG chapter tactics supposedly are, they are really quite good when you look at the Razorback/Rhino rush builds in batreps. It's also very fluffy, because it's basically representing all these transports appearing out of nowhere and unloading tactical squads right into the enemies position, the kind of ambushes they are known for.
Couple this with Shrike infiltrating an assault squad (or Vanguard Veterans) out of the shadows to support those ambushing tactical squads and it's really a very true-to-fluff style of game play that is also very enjoyable and fun to play.

Ultramarines: I haven't read any Batreps or seen them played in all honesty, but I recommend this BOLS article on them: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/40k-chapter-tactics-ultramarines.html .

To quote: "Experience and many trials have led to army lists for each of the Chapters, and they usually revolve around a strong core of units unique to each list. This is the beauty of the Space Marine codex; so many units are affected in a staggering number of ways by the different Chapter Tactics, improving their viability exponentially based on the choice of army." That is so true and about sums it up for Space Marines. With the nature of the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics I think they encourage you to bring a wide variety of units from the whole codex rather than a more specific core of units found in other chapters: And this actually reflects the Ultramarines perfectly, as they are the most versatile chapter out there, while other chapters tend to prefer certain units over others.

"The Ultramarines are the favoured sons, the poster boys of the Space Marines, and they are both beloved and despised for it. Regardless of how you feel towards them, though, their history of success cannot be denied." Another very true quote. Many people seem to despise them, I think because as they are seen as being bland and lacking the unique traits of other chapters (especially ones that don't follow the codex astartes as rigidly), but in some ways that is unfair because they do actually have some cool unique things about them: The Tyrannic War (and the formation of the veterans as a result) is a great story in my opinion, and the fact they rule over a largely autonomous empire (Ultramar) within the Imperium is unique amongst the chapters. So that criticism isn't totally fair in my opinion.

With your current models, you can go easily either way as Varakir points out.

Personally, I love Raven Guard so I would say RG over Ultramarines ;-) But go out and read the novels and/or fluff online, pick whatever calls to you, then get a few games in to see if you enjoy playing them. You may not like RG style of play or may find it too constricting...

And yes, you could always pick both if you cannot decide :) Allies rules and everything.

One final thought: I do tend to build themed armies, especially with Space Marines, and have found they can get a bit samey if you restrict yourself like this, which is where the allies rules really freshen things up and prevent your army from becoming boring. For example, with my Salamanders I wanted my army to be fluffy, so I did not allow myself to take any bikes, landspeeders or scouts and focused on melta and flame weapons and drop pods and heavy war machines like Vindicators and Thunderfire Cannons instead. But sometimes I miss having an army with those fast attack choices, which is fine because I then I can just dust off my Dark Angels and play my Ravenwing (loads of bikers, speeders) lists. Then, if I miss assault marines and scouts I can play my Raven Guard...Or I can ally them in in any various combinations, to keep a nice variety of lists and play styles going, and things never get boring because they all compliment each other :) So if you do go for one of the more unique but restrictive chapters, this could be something to think about too.

Hope this helps you some.

SF
 

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I am leaning towards Raven Guard (well a successor chapter) but just wasn't sure if the units I had work work best with that type of army.

I mean I have Shrike, who just looks bad ass. I can even field him as a Chapter Master/Captain kitted out the same way as Shrike. Not sure if that's smart idea but I can find that out later.

Also I love jump packs, hence the Chaplain with one and the two Assault Squads.

I assume the two Tactical Squads would be the scoring units in my army. Just not sure if they should be in Rhinos or Razorbacks and how/if I should combat squad them.

The Scouts I have fit the fluff of Raven Guard better too just not sure how to use them in the best way yet.

I really don't think I'd field them as 2 separate detachments. I like having one army at the moment but when I do feel the need to paint SM another color scheme that may be a great option.
Scouts: Sniper rifles, camo cloaks. Put them in a ruin or behind an aegis defence line. They get a 2+ cover save which are a pain in the ass to remove (unless you are facing lots of cover ignoring ap4 weaponry). Cheap scoring unit.
Other way to run them, is to invest in landspeeder storms and put them in the storms.

Rhinos vs Razorbacks: This was discussed in the other thread, but it depends on what build you are going for. Razorbacks work great with RG though.

Chaplain with Assault Squads is a decent choice, they boost them considerably. You could even use them as Vanguard Veterans for all those re-rolling extra attacks...

You pay a heft points price for Shrike for his infiltrate ability: Shrike can't go toe to toe with other warlords due to his ap3 attacks (you need ap2 if you want to be able to go toe to toe), but he is great for infiltrating an assault or vanguard squad into a mid-table piece of scenary before the game starts and then targeting your opponents scoring units (just not dedicated assault units or terminator squads). You just have to be very selective and smart how you use them: Like the actual RG fluff, he should wait and attack weak points in your opponents army at just the right time. Throwing them into units like Terminator assault squads is a bad idea. But against power armour they will generally do great.

Edit: You could always use both Shrike and a Chaplain in one squad, to give them all re-rolls. That would be a pretty potent combination, especially in Vanguard Vets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, it really depends on what you want out of 40k: Are you into the fluff, do you just like the models or do you just enjoy the gaming side the most? Or like most people, is it a mix of all 3?
All 3 here. I love to read, building and painting models has always been tons of fun and of course the game, that's the goal with creating an army no?

Personally, I am the type who spends hours lost reading about the background online, and reading the novels, especially the Horus Heresy novels...
All of my armies I fell in love with whilst reading about them in novels and fluff. I am reading Deliverance Lost at the moment - the story of the Raven Guard during the heresy - and this is a major reason why I have chosen Raven Guard as an allied detachment to my Salamanders.
I've read the first 3 books in the Horus Heresy series years ago, loved them. Definitely thinking about picking the series back up. I see that "Deliverance Lost" is the 18th book in the series. Do I need to read 4-17 or can I pick up "Deliverance Lost" and read it as a stand alone book?

Raven Guard: Despite most the internet bitching about how crap the RG chapter tactics supposedly are, they are really quite good when you look at the Razorback/Rhino rush builds in batreps. It's also very fluffy, because it's basically representing all these transports appearing out of nowhere and unloading tactical squads right into the enemies position, the kind of ambushes they are known for.
Couple this with Shrike infiltrating an assault squad (or Vanguard Veterans) out of the shadows to support those ambushing tactical squads and it's really a very true-to-fluff style of game play that is also very enjoyable and fun to play.
Well then it sounds to me that I already am leaning towards a fluff-like army and play style for my RG successor chapter. Now it comes down to Rhino vs. Razorbacks and Assault Squads vs. Vanguard Veterans.

Ultramarines: I haven't read any Batreps or seen them played in all honesty, but I recommend this BOLS article on them: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/40k-chapter-tactics-ultramarines.html .
I'll be giving that a read after I finish this post.

One final thought: I do tend to build themed armies, especially with Space Marines, and have found they can get a bit samey if you restrict yourself like this, which is where the allies rules really freshen things up and prevent your army from becoming boring. For example, with my Salamanders I wanted my army to be fluffy, so I did not allow myself to take any bikes, landspeeders or scouts and focused on melta and flame weapons and drop pods and heavy war machines like Vindicators and Thunderfire Cannons instead. But sometimes I miss having an army with those fast attack choices, which is fine because I then I can just dust off my Dark Angels and play my Ravenwing (loads of bikers, speeders) lists. Then, if I miss assault marines and scouts I can play my Raven Guard...Or I can ally them in in any various combinations, to keep a nice variety of lists and play styles going, and things never get boring because they all compliment each other :) So if you do go for one of the more unique but restrictive chapters, this could be something to think about too.
This might have been the one "thought" that has got me thinking the most! I'm thinking that I keep my RG successor chapter army small, tight, and fluff-focused. Then I can focus on being a ally army. That way I can come up with a brand new successor chapter for any chapter I wish. It also allows me to come up with a new color scheme and start painting a fresh new army. I love this part of 40K, as a graphic design coming up with a color scheme to paint is really fun to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Scouts: Sniper rifles, camo cloaks. Put them in a ruin or behind an aegis defence line. They get a 2+ cover save which are a pain in the ass to remove (unless you are facing lots of cover ignoring ap4 weaponry). Cheap scoring unit.
Unfortunately the 10 SM Scouts I have or the "basic" ones with BP & CCW or Shotguns but I do like your idea of the snipers with the aegis defense line. Might save that idea for an ally attachment, have my RG be up in your face and my ally attachment providing fire support from afar.

Rhinos vs Razorbacks: This was discussed in the other thread, but it depends on what build you are going for. Razorbacks work great with RG though.
Yeah, I've been watching and reading that other thread as well. Great info there. Now If I go with Razorbacks over the Rhinos for a dedicated transport for the Tactical Squads should I just go with a 5-man squad in each or field a 10-man squad and combat squad 5 SM into each Razorback?

Chaplain with Assault Squads is a decent choice, they boost them considerably. You could even use them as Vanguard Veterans for all those re-rolling extra attacks...
I've played my Chaplain with a 10-man Assault Squad before and it's worked out pretty well. I like the idea of the Vanguard Veterans just not sure if they are worth the points. The +1 attach you get with them over Assault Squads is nice just not sure if upgrading their gear is worth the points. Granted more powerful shooting/assault is good but they'll still die just as easily as any other SM.

You pay a heft points price for Shrike for his infiltrate ability: Shrike can't go toe to toe with other warlords due to his ap3 attacks (you need ap2 if you want to be able to go toe to toe), but he is great for infiltrating an assault or vanguard squad into a mid-table piece of scenary before the game starts and then targeting your opponents scoring units (just not dedicated assault units or terminator squads). You just have to be very selective and smart how you use them: Like the actual RG fluff, he should wait and attack weak points in your opponents army at just the right time. Throwing them into units like Terminator assault squads is a bad idea. But against power armour they will generally do great.
Seems like the Shrike/Vanguard combo would work well with a higher point army where the Chaplain/Assault combo would work well with a lower point army. My old tactic I was toying with in 5th edition was Shrike/Assault Terminators but that isn't allowed anymore....

Edit: You could always use both Shrike and a Chaplain in one squad, to give them all re-rolls. That would be a pretty potent combination, especially in Vanguard Vets.
A deadly "all-in" setup there. The razor sharp point to my striking RG army. Sounds great on paper, just need to be able to execute it in game and still have the rest of my army do it's thing.
 

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Unfortunately the 10 SM Scouts I have or the "basic" ones with BP & CCW or Shotguns but I do like your idea of the snipers with the aegis defense line.

Well, with those BP/CCW or Shotgun builds you could put them in Land Speeder Storms. They are open topped so you can fire shotguns out of them and then decide whether to charge out of it or not, as open topped counts as an assault vehicle.
Yes, they are AV10 which is rubbish, but they can flat out move 30" which will give you a 4+ jink save.
They can also outflank, but then I believe you cannot assault from outflank...
Probably best to start them on the table if you plan to use them to shoot and assault, and just hug BLOS scenery until it's time to pounce. Just don't plan on them killing all that much, they are much more of a late game objective grabbing unit (which is where having land speeder as a transport is useful) rather than a unit that is going to kill stuff. They will deal with firewarriors and units with a 5+ save pretty well with bolt pistols and close combat weapons, but if dealing with MEQ shotguns are probably better, because they have more shots yet the same strength (weight of fire vs better AP). The scout squad plus speeder storm package comes in at 100pts, which is a cheap and very mobile scoring unit.



Might save that idea for an ally attachment, have my RG be up in your face and my ally attachment providing fire support from afar.

Yep, that was my thinking with my 2000pt Salamanders-Ravenguard list. The Razorback scout tactic with RG synergises well with a lot of other space marine chapter tactics, I think.
If you want long-range support, then Bolter Drill from Imperial Fists I think would be a suitable allied detachment. If you want drop pods to support your Razorbacks for a very aggressive close ranged in your face strategy, Salamanders are probably the best...And if you want bikes supporting your razorback/rhino rush, then white scars or ravenwing would probably fit the bill. Lots of options. The codex is very flexible.



Yeah, I've been watching and reading that other thread as well. Great info there. Now If I go with Razorbacks over the Rhinos for a dedicated transport for the Tactical Squads should I just go with a 5-man squad in each or field a 10-man squad and combat squad 5 SM into each Razorback?

5-man in each. MSUs all the way :) You give up killpoints in the 1 scenario that still uses kill points, but you spread your firepower out, much more flexible.


I've played my Chaplain with a 10-man Assault Squad before and it's worked out pretty well. I like the idea of the Vanguard Veterans just not sure if they are worth the points. The +1 attach you get with them over Assault Squads is nice just not sure if upgrading their gear is worth the points. Granted more powerful shooting/assault is good but they'll still die just as easily as any other SM.

Yes they do die as easily and that is a of course a bit of a problem...Which is why I never arm them with anything, I just run them naked, as then when they die they aren't such a massive liability.
Some people throw in maybe one or two storm shields in the squad to soak up low ap shots, which is perfectly fine, but I advocate running them naked, as the points rack up very quickly once you start adding even a few upgrades.
If you run them naked with jump packs you are paying 5pts more than Assault marines per model. You get +1 attack and +1 leadership, plus the heroic intervention rule (which is a bit crap now compared to last edition, but hey it's a small bonus). Worth it? It depends. By taking 10 you are paying 50pts more than a 10-man Assault. Those 50pts may often be better spent elsewhere, especially in smaller points games. I think they are better used in 2000pt games where you have more leeway with your points spending. In lower points games, i'd stick with the regular ASM, who also get to take x2 flamers, which is nice. Taking a chaplain makes them much more worthwhile though.


Seems like the Shrike/Vanguard combo would work well with a higher point army where the Chaplain/Assault combo would work well with a lower point army. My old tactic I was toying with in 5th edition was Shrike/Assault Terminators but that isn't allowed anymore....

Yeah or just stick to Vanguard for higher points and ASM for lower points. ASM are probably what id' choose most often, in all honesty. Just more points efficient overall.

A deadly "all-in" setup there. The razor sharp point to my striking RG army. Sounds great on paper, just need to be able to execute it in game and still have the rest of my army do it's thing.

haha it might. I may try it out.
 

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All 3 here. I love to read, building and painting models has always been tons of fun and of course the game, that's the goal with creating an army no?

Well, some people don't give a crap about fluff, but yeah this is the balance most people strive for I think...

I've read the first 3 books in the Horus Heresy series years ago, loved them. Definitely thinking about picking the series back up. I see that "Deliverance Lost" is the 18th book in the series. Do I need to read 4-17 or can I pick up "Deliverance Lost" and read it as a stand alone book?

Horus Heresy can be read in any order really...At least I think so.
I started with Thousand Sons, then Fulgrim, then Vulkan Lives etc...Now Deliverance Lost. I don't think there is a specific order to read them in, unless you don't want spoilers. But I knew the outcome of most the novels anyway due to reading the 40k wiki online and stuff...and we all know the outcome anyway lol But maybe there is some sort of order? I hadn't actually thought of that.



I'll be giving that a read after I finish this post.

I also recommend this as a source for all 40k tactics, list building, and fluff: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marines

Written by fans, so take it with a pinch of salt (this is the internet after all lol), a special type of sense of humour...You might like it, or not...I personally think it's pretty hilarious...Check out 'Angry Marines' if you have the time, for the lolz...


This might have been the one "thought" that has got me thinking the most! I'm thinking that I keep my RG successor chapter army small, tight, and fluff-focused. Then I can focus on being a ally army. That way I can come up with a brand new successor chapter for any chapter I wish. It also allows me to come up with a new color scheme and start painting a fresh new army. I love this part of 40K, as a graphic design coming up with a color scheme to paint is really fun to me.

Sounds good and yeah I agree I love that aspect too. The design stages are very satisfying when it starts coming together. I hope you have fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Instead of quoting and re-quoting over and over I'm just go to condense my thoughts here...

As for my scouts, I may just shelf them for now. The models are complete and I really don't have an exact plan with them at this point. Nothing feels like a "great idea" for them so instead of forcing the issue with them I'll leave them incomplete for now. I can always finish them off another day.

The more I think about it the more I'm in love with this ally attachment idea! It allows me to wrap up my RG army, no more units to buy or paint, just work with what I have and anything new I wanna add to my army can be an ally attachment. This works perfectly for me as I jumping back into 40K. I can start a "new" army but without the need for a whole new army. Just create something that compliments the RG army I field.

I think I can see your point with the usage of Razorbacks. But which setup in your opinion works better with the RG strategy you, and now I'm convinced is sound.

5-man Tactical Squad
-1 special/heavy weapon
-Razorback

5-man Tactical Squad
-1 special/heavy weapon
-Razorback

OR

10-man Tactical Squad (split in Combat Squads)
-1 special weapon
-Razorback

-1 heavy weapon
-Taking up a firing postion/holding an obejctive

10-man Tactical Squad (split in Combat Squads)
-1 special weapon
-Razorback

-1 heavy weapon
-Taking up a firing postion/holding an obejctive

So NAKED Vanguard Veterans w/JP paired with a Chaplain w/JP. Check. OR 10x ASM paired with a Chaplain w/JP. Check. Comes down to points really.

Looks like I'll be picking up a few Horus Heresy novels then. I'm an avid reader so that's great that I can just pick the books out of the series that perk my interest.

Time to lock down a RG army list with what I have. Maybe add 1 small thing but I don't wanna invest too much more in my RG army. Then decide which ally attachment fits best for me.
 
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