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Termies with Storm Shields all have 3+ invuln saves... hence difficulty wounding them with anything...

Do Chaos have any weapons that ignore invuln saves? If so, I'd say use it... AP won't help if their invuln save is the same as marine power-armour...
 

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AP does help against Storm Shield Termies, AP2 effectively doubles your chance of killing one. It take 12 hits with Bolters to score 1 wound, but only 6 Plasma Gun hits will score 1 wound. Now obviously lots of low AP shots are harder to come by but they are still useful.

Aramoro
 

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Vindicators I have found to be more effective agaisnt deathstar units like this, main reasons are large blasts and str. 10. 3 of them can take out the crusader with relative ease. main problem is that they're in range of the multimelta and assault cannon. but with 3 str. 10 shots hitting it it's gonna lose one of those when they hit.
 

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Ancient Relic
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well considering these are TH/SS termies, dont worry about ranged weapons, i would do what has already been mentioned. 3 vindies will destroy the raider with relative ease, but they will also help annihilate the contents. 3 pie plates , so it is almost certain that 1 will direct hit the terminators, and it should kill at least 2 of them, considering it wounds on 2+, and they need 3+ to save, so 2-3 should die from each. logan is an eternal warrior, as is arjac, and they will soak up wounds. really, once the raider is opened up, bring in lots of rapid fire weapons, lash princes and, despite their shittiness, some spawn to tie them up in combat for a turn.
 

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Frag Missiles are pretty good, just gotta fire 4 at a time :biggrin:. Alternatively, although it sounds weird and is very rsiky, use lash to bring them closer to you. Rapid fire death from Boltguns/Sonics, and then Lash 'em backwards. if you can get them taking dangerous terrain tests by lahing them into cover, great. If you can keep them in that cover e.g. moving slowly by lashing, another great.

Midnight
 

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Pop the Raider. Step one. Step 2, Volume of fire. It's half his army! Just focus everything on the walking termies, and they'll slowly melt away. Also, try the Slaneesh Daemon Weapon. After all, it's ID if you fail a wound. And you go first! That's all I've got.
 

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I would just take out the other half of the army first. Since 2/3 of missions involve objectives if his troops get wiped out (apart from Logan and co) then he will struggle to win.
 

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Why not take a unit of Slaneesh terminators in a LR. Make all but 1 champions /w lightning claws. Give the standard bearer LC's as well.

Thats a whole crapload of attacks with rerolls to wound at a better INI than that of the wolf guard. If my maths right, this should kill 5.13 terminators - more than enough to cripple most squads. Hell, if you really want drop 1 termy and throw in abbadon.

You have multiple ways of opening up that LR - meltas, LC, DS oblits, etc etc - or just wait until he pops out to munch on your bait squad.
 

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mmhh,

no the mathammeing seems wrong for me.

lets assume 5 termi champs with lc

this are 5 at on the charge each which makes 25 Attacks. WS 4 against WS4, 50 % are going to hit. So 12.5 are going to hit. S4 against T4 with reroll to wound, 75% are going to hit which is 9.3. From those 9 wounds 2/3 are going to be stopped by the 3+ invul. So only 3 will go down. If he allocate wounds on logan its less since he has more than one wound. This leaves him with 3 killed termis. And than 4 + logan are striking back.
which are 8 Attacks from the termis and 5 from logan.
4 Attacks from hammers are hitting roughly 3-4 are wounding, you save roughly 1-2, 2-3 termis dead. than the 5 from logan 3 are hitting, 3 are wounding another 2 termis dead....csm termi unit killed.(or 1 left)...


so he will have roughly 3 casualties where you have 5...
 

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Abbadon leading 7 Terminator champions with Icon of tzneetch.

Thats 28 attacks. 14 will hit. 10.5 wounds. 3.5 dead.
Abaddon with all his fancy rules will add at least 2-3.

Your increased inv will take the edge of his wounds.

and you can even put a few on Abaddon, seeing as he is immune to ID.
 

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mmhh,

no the mathammeing seems wrong for me.

lets assume 5 termi champs with lc

this are 5 at on the charge each which makes 25 Attacks. WS 4 against WS4, 50 % are going to hit. So 12.5 are going to hit. S4 against T4 with reroll to wound, 75% are going to hit which is 9.3. From those 9 wounds 2/3 are going to be stopped by the 3+ invul. So only 3 will go down. If he allocate wounds on logan its less since he has more than one wound. This leaves him with 3 killed termis. And than 4 + logan are striking back.
which are 8 Attacks from the termis and 5 from logan.
4 Attacks from hammers are hitting roughly 3-4 are wounding, you save roughly 1-2, 2-3 termis dead. than the 5 from logan 3 are hitting, 3 are wounding another 2 termis dead....csm termi unit killed.(or 1 left)...


so he will have roughly 3 casualties where you have 5...
Oops sorry, I rerolled to hit - not wound. It would look like this:

5 LC Champs = 25 attacks
1 LC Standard Bearer = 4 attacks

29 attacks -> 14.5 hit -> 10.875 wound -> 3.625 dead (read 4). Can't allocate to Logan as you won't attack him.

That leaves 3 termies + Logan to attack back which will result in 3.51 dead (read 4) Tie.

Next round would be game over for the CSM as they only kill 1 more. However, you've now gutted that unit at roughly half the points. This also isn't factoring in the fact that you've got a land raider which is now free to pop lascannon shots at stuff. Throw abbadon in and your still probably cheaper but you kill 3 termies with just him.

I'd say that LR + 4 LC champs + 1 LC slaneesh SB + Abbadon should be able to do it for maybe 2/3 the costish?
 

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also against the slaanesh champs Logan can use hi weapon as a power weapon too so I'm not sure if he's striking before them or equally. I think the tzeentch terminators are pretty good idea though they're a fairly killy tarpit...
 

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But how do you fit 6 termis (Champs + Icon bearer) in a csm LR? There is only place for 5. Since they SW Termis have Stormhammer anyway, you don't need the IoS because they have ini 1 anyway. I think IoK or IoT is the better option.
 

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While i have no experience fighting space wolves, particulary the Logan guy you mentioned, i can give advice on how to deal with assult terminators in general. A friend I oftern play against a friend who fields Vulcan and about 6 Assult terminators with the ss and LC, although they do not ride in a raider they are very difficult to destroy.

First things first, you've got to get them out of the land raider. This can be done by either blowing it up using a lascannon from an oblit or a vindicator shot, I prefer the latter but my vindicator has bad case of blowing-up-first-turn. The alternative to blowing the raider is to provide bait such as plague marines, give them 2 meltas and place them in an aggressive position to attack the raider and they're bound to assult you, with defensive grenades they get no bonuses for charging and your powerfist could hurt them. Anyway the idea is to get them out, one way or another.

Now that they're out, how do we get rid of them? the only consistent way i can think of is with a massive multiple assult from everything you have. To take on my friends vulcan/assult terminator squad i attack with a Demon prince (I used a lash prince but a Nurgle or Tzeench prince with warptime does wonders, and wind of chaos will help a lot with the tzeench prince) and a fully tooled up berzerker squad. In my berzerker squads i keep the pw on the champ since furious charge allowes me to go before him.

Anyway if you're having real troubles kiling them then i suggest 2 DP's, preferably with warptime (if you don't like using DP's then grab kharn, he's a bargin at 165 points and will really mess them up, but you need to be good at rolling 5+ invunerable saves since he's not immune to instant death) and 2 10 man berzerker squads. If the berzerkers shoot then everyone assults i don't see how anything can survive that.

The idea with dealing with this kind of squad is to either attack early by destroying the raider and rushing the contents, or to prepare for a counter attack. If you're having trouble getting rid of the raider then go for option 2, keep zerkers in rhinos and set up the trap. otherwise do what chaos loves and run in screeming with a gun and a chain(insert ccw here).
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Really great advice from everyone, thanks! Looks like the wolves have launched a recon campaign inside my lines (Xander Two-Wolves is my buddy) but all of your input should help me next time I face this behemoth.
 

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In all honesty, just run your most effective balanced list: dual lash w/ oblit spam. Throw in some fast suicide melta and voila, bye-bye death star.

Or if you just wanted pure fun you could make your own death star (LR full of MoK LC termie champs & Abbadon) and run into an assault with him. Hell that's a cheaper deathstar and even killier. Just make sure Logans only in b2b with Abby, that way he can't kill your termies.
Good Hunting,
Raptors8th
 

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Problem that I see is that you're trying to tailor a list to beat one type of build... What other options do you have at 2500 points? I'm assuming you have the tools to pop a raider so that's step 1. His hammer unit is 1000 points. You should be fighting his other 1500 points with most of your army. If you can delay their effectiveness and focus on the other elements in his list, then you should be looking to face them turn 4-ish... At which point, you should be in a position to torrent him, throw a unit at him, etc... I think the key is to delay the hammer and overload the rest of his forces till you have an advantage.

Lash is good, but between the 4+ negation that a Rune Priest will offer along with the Wolf Tail - I don't think you can rely on it... but if it goes off, then good on ya.... but I wouldn't rely on it.
 

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Focus on the rest of his army. The only thing I would recommend is dedicating an Obliterator or havoc squad to hopefully destroy it but immoblisation would also be a winner.
Don't try and tailor a list just to defeat this unit, you will just lose to the rest of his army. Hes betting on you throwing everything you got at his landraider and as long as you tunnel vision he will win. Goodluck
 
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