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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Supposed to be a SM artillery vehicle and fluffed as a flexible, capable system, the stats of the whirlwind just don't support this.

The range is too short to be an artillery unit (unless it's a SP AM Mortar) and it lacks the punch of other artillery units.

I suspect this is a game -balance issue. Not wanting to give SMs a real arty unit, or anything with real range to keep them balanced vs other armies.

Two fixes I can think of, because I like realism in my Sf games over balance (the pts system does that);

1) keep it as it is, but add a transport capacity like a razorback. The WW in Epic had this, so there is a basis for it and in a game without long-range support, marines need all the armour they can get to get into bolter and LasCannon range.

2) different missiles do different things on the same model. An indirect arty missile with long range and a large blast marker, an AT missile long-range direct fire with TL and a SAM missile with TL, Skyfire and Interceptor.

So; tell me what you think; how I'm wrong, how to use a WW, how it totally is an artillery weapon, whatever.
 

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I would say it is more a issue with how many options are in the FoC slot including the Thunderfire Cannon that are making the WW seem lackluster. I have played against people that swore by them and always included one in thier lists. I personally never took them because I wanted the AT punch of other options.
 

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Warsmith
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The general view at my local, is that if you could take 1-3 in a slot then you would see them alot more.. as the single whirlwind is a cheep and only small damage output for a HS slot.
 

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Rattlehead
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Marines don't really need to spend points and slots on ranged anti-infantry and if they did, Thunderfire Cannons are basically an objectively superior option. The main strike against them is opportunity cost (I could reasonably see one in a Deathwing list with maxed Mortis Dreadnoughts for Elites, but even then it's not fantastic - just ally in Guard and get a Manticore to be strictly better at your job which highlights the other problem with Whirlwinds; all Marines are BBs with Guard, who can pack Barrage weapons out the wazoo and for the same points as a Whirlwind you could bring a Wyvern).

The Whirlwind isn't a victim of game balance, it's a victim of GW's terrible (albeit slowly adapting) approach to Marines. Plasma Pistols have been no way near 15pts since 4th ed, but they're still in every damn book. Terminators are not worth 40pts each, but they're in every damn book. Land Raider Phobos are not worth 250pts, but they're in every damn book. GW still has a thing for some things like 15pt Power Swords staying at that price, despite the game changing to the point where that's totally out of whack with it's actual value.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Thing is, it doesn't really have a range issue.....
Hmmm, well maybe stuff that really changed in recent editions, but in 4E, my marines used to get creamed way out there by IG arty and 72inch battle cannons.

But I look at these things differently; like the Iron Warriors have the right idea packing along a few Basilisks for reach. Like just picture an artillery duel between guard and marines. Ouch.
 

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GW did have 10pt power swords in non Marine books, but then bumped them to 15 points again for no explainable reason.

Because a S3/T3/I3 model should totally pay as much for a power weapon as a S4/T4/I4 model.

If 40k was 100% truly balanced then the answer is "yes", but since 40k isn't anywhere close to being truly balanced...ya, about those cover sheets on the TPS reports...
Supposed to be a SM artillery vehicle and fluffed as a flexible, capable system, the stats of the whirlwind just don't support this.

The range is too short to be an artillery unit (unless it's a SP AM Mortar) and it lacks the punch of other artillery units.

I suspect this is a game -balance issue. Not wanting to give SMs a real arty unit, or anything with real range to keep them balanced vs other armies.

Two fixes I can think of, because I like realism in my Sf games over balance (the pts system does that);

1) keep it as it is, but add a transport capacity like a razorback. The WW in Epic had this, so there is a basis for it and in a game without long-range support, marines need all the armour they can get to get into bolter and LasCannon range.

2) different missiles do different things on the same model. An indirect arty missile with long range and a large blast marker, an AT missile long-range direct fire with TL and a SAM missile with TL, Skyfire and Interceptor.

So; tell me what you think; how I'm wrong, how to use a WW, how it totally is an artillery weapon, whatever.
I feel that whirlwind need; mix and match to hearts content.

To be able to shoot at two different targets, or shoot 2 templates
Have a dedicated anti-armor round, S9 AP2 twin-linked?
Be able to be taken in squadrons.
have Anti-air missiles stock (oh right we have those new crappy tanks that do that...so GW decides to give us two more tanks than to simply make the one that they already had better...right TPS reports)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy3rjQGc6lA
 

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Rattlehead
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Guys, just run your pretty rocket tank as a Relic Scorpius. Exchanges the Vengeance and Castellan missiles for Str8 AP3 Heavy D3+1 barrage rockets. Covers your desire for a flexible artillery piece. Rules might still be free on Forge World, if not, it's not hard to find them/scrounge them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
What do marines get besides Conversion Beamers which reach 72-240 inches?

If you can't shoot that far, you can't shoot that far.

I just think either the Whirlwind should match it's fluff as an artillery vehicle or it should match it's rules and be fluffed as a short-range bomb-tosser.
 

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The Whirlwind was meant to be a mobile Shoot and Scoot launcher. Fluff doesn't match rules, and unless it turns into a Fire on the Move launcher which fits an Astartes theme, it's lack of penetrating power (S5 is worth jack shit), or ability to ignore cover.

I think they should bring back the old Castellan Missiles and just make the standard rounds Ignore Cover. The Old Castellan Missiles deployed mines.

Deploying a 5" circle of dangerous terrain, which could have the benefit of letting any enemy unit moving over it be lit up as if by Searchlight (and perhaps the ability to make a "Scout" shoot during the first turn would be better. Giving it the Relic Scorpius' D3+1 shots option (perhaps as an upgrade), or an upgrade which allows it to fire Hyperios Missiles (maybe +20pts, comes with 2 Hyperios Missiles, additional ones can be bought for +5pts). Alternatively, just reducing Scatter and ignoring Cover as standard makes it a viable option compared to the thing of beauty that is the Thunderfire Cannon.



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