[stormshroud]

With the way the new codices are heading is the loss of Traits for SM’s and Traits for the IG inevitability? I think it could well be.

This current trend to streamline the game in the recent codices will spell doom for the traits and doctrines systems. I think that this will be a great shame. The 40K galaxy is supposed to be vast and varied and the armies of the Imperium are drawn from a myriad of worlds each of which is different if we lose the ability to represent that in our games I feel it would be a great loss to the hobby.

What do the rest of you think? What does the rumour mill say?

 

[torealis]

I reckon traits are going, but i dont think it's any great loss, the FOC is flexible enough to have varied fluff armies. If you want a fast army, use DA or BA rules. I use the BA codex for my Fists successors, its not very restrictive
Guard won't have a new codex for a while, so i wouldnt think doctrines will be out. i think theyre also much more central to making an effective list. though i can see a rejig of the codex (when it happens) making doctrines obsolete.

 

[Jacobite]

Defintly. The game is being dumbed down for reasons which have been said by more people than I care to count and I therefore wouldn't be adding my 2 cents.

Its ok for the SM players as they have different Chapter codexs to go to when they want variation and (if rumour is true) CSM's won't be to bad off either due to cult troops which could (potentially) heavily theme a army. The rest of the armies don't have that luxury which was why when the Doctrines came out for IG I was dancing with joy. Yea sure the same doctrines kept getting used for Comps but that is the same for every army.

So basically yes it's coming and no I'm not happy about it. :| :?

(This may, in part, stem from being made to wear a uniform at school untill I was 18, having to be clean shaven, no hair gell, no hair die, short hair etc. I just escaped high-school and I want to express my individuality dam it!)

 

[Tomo]

off topic: your school seems exactly like mine is :|

 

[cccp]

(This may, in part, stem from being made to wear a uniform at school untill I was 18, having to be clean shaven, no hair gell, no hair die, short hair etc. I just escaped high-school and I want to express my individuality dam it!)

that sucks hard.

and i the SM traits need reviewing, however if they disposed of the Guard doctrines it would kill the entire army. seeing as you need to lots of £££ (or $$$) getting a guard army together they wouldnt do that.

if they did..well...the gurd would be even shitter than daemonhunters.

 

[Anphicar]

Well.. i ccertainly hope not.

Personally, I do not use them. I rather don't see their use unless creating a fluffy army with spice-well, maybe one or two are good; their cheeseyness is in question, too, though.

Others like to use them though. So keep'em.

 

[uberschveinen]

Well, there's a simple way of seeing why they'd change them.

Eldar never had them and didn't need them. No optional rules.

Chaos never had them and didn't need them. No optional rules, but an assload of codex printings.

Tau never had them and didn't need them. No optional rules.

Specific space marine armies used to need them, but with their own codex they don't. No optional rules.

Dark Eldar and Orks haven't seen the light of day. DE won't need them. Orks might be improved by them, but without seeing the rules nobody knows.

Space Marines really could use them, to provide some difference between the players of this most popular army. However, now that there are a variety of noncodex armies for the really big divergences, the current doctrines could feasibly be contracted until they were functionally contained in the basic codex.

Imperial guard, though, really do need them. They're the only effective means thus far of giving the players the full scale of options. It is possible that they could be folded into the main rules, but that would take a great deal of effort.

This is the problem most of you seem to be having in your thinking. They will not take the old codex, cut out the doctrines section, and call it fourth edition. IF the doctrines go, they will be replaced by something similar, or their rules effect will be folded into the main army.

Personally, though doctrines are a pleasing way of making armies diffferent, they're easy to exploit and are almost always used in ways counter to their original intent. Originally, you were supposed to pick some while making your army to make it more appealing to you. However, most people have just seen them as an extra layer of strategic advantage, and pick and mix per game for whatever help they can get. As such, either doctrines will stay like this, or be changed to fix it.

If they stay the same, they are effectively more codex options. In line with GW's policy of streamlining and many options, then they'd be slung into the main codex. The difference would be minute, though nobody would see it that way.

If they change, they'd have to be in some way permanent for the army, or make sense to be changeable. High strategy and military organisation doesn't change from fight to fight, so that doesn't work. It'd either see srict and seemingly arbitrary rules to lock down the doctrines, or the general effect of doctrines weakened and most of them folded into the codex.

 

[black chaplain]

i seriously doubt GW will get rid of doctrines and traits. I think they will just be simplified, such as combining several doctrines and have a cumulative point value. also i really don't see them going because as Uber said the new codexes we've seen so far haven't ever really had traits/doctrines in them so we can't really be sure

 

[Alexander_67]

It boils my blood to think of the loss of any traits because some people cant be bothered. Its not like you have to take them!!!!!!!!! you can just ignore them and have a bog standard army. The traits are there to personalise your army. I enjoy and wholly recommend personalisation of your army beyond just the modelling side.

 

[Ordo Xeno Commander]

i take traits and it offers a huge range of different abilites

 

[Viscount Vash]

Uberschveinen

Chaos never had them and didn't need them. No optional rules, but an assload of codex printings.

Just verteran abilities and Legion rules which are alas all gone now.

Yes IMO traits and Doctrines are soon/ish to be gone.
So don't go buying a whole army of Grenadiers or they can go on the shelf with my cultists, Converted characters (see my Avatar pic.)

 

[Alexander_67]

Just to throw this in there, something i've just thought of, Is it our fault they are going?

The traits, doctrines and army specific rules (while loved by me forever) allowed some determined and ambitious players to create armies that have been since dubbed 'beardy' or 'spammy' or 'down right cheap'. Eg Iron warriors Obliterator army, Alaitoc ranger army to name only a few which have both been axed. We've complained slated and downright hated the rules that have brought about these uber armies, so my question is this.

We complain about the traits that are unfair and make armies far too powerful, Have GW actually listenened and decided all traits are a bad thing? Or did they realise that were they to remove 1 trait to appease the masses they would have to remove them all out of fairness? Did we by stating on many occassions how much certain traits ruined the game force GW's hand in getting rid of them all?

I bloody hope not. Still it makes you think. Is this really what we want to happen?

 

[Viscount Vash]

There is a certian amount to what you say Alexander_67,( I still have to restrain the urge to kick IW players that imo have caused this in tournements.)

But that said Traits and Doctrines are on the whole are Points that do not fuel Purchases and the bean counters do not like such things.

I now have over 2000pts worth of useless Chaos models now and if I want to continue playing Chaos will have to get many new minis to fill the gaps. (Most annoying are the Character conversions I have lost, but the 120 cultists I can't use is truley FUBAR :evil: .)

So all together now 'What do points make?.......................'

 

[asianavatar]

Oh Vash I feel for you, that totally sucks. I had the same issue when the new lizardmen came out and I had 40+ skinks with bows I couldn't use so I had to convert them to javs and blowpipes (cut myself so many times finishing them). So I can imagine what it is like not to be able to use them at all.

Honestly, though I don't know anyone besides you who actually has cultists. At one point they were such a large part of the chaos fluff, but they seemed to have disappeared. No one at my store ever uses them or even has them I think.

You could use them as traitors and write up a radical witchhunter list, or if they are not too chaosy they could be used as zealots for a witchhunter list.

 

[Jacobite]

Generic Deamons is a posibilty as well. Although many people may look down on you for it.

That would allow you to use pretty much all of the little buggers.

 

[hephesto]

Not a bad idea there, possessed cultists could make for good generic daemon.

 

[Jacobite]

I was also thinking - with their statline it could be a force of Tratiors trained and built up to the standard of the Blood Pact.

 

[Viscount Vash]

Interesting ideas all, thanks guys.

Another idea that some has mentioned to me is using them as Guard with the Warrior Weapons Doctrine.( does not suit mine but might help someone else. )

Back to the original topic:

I think my comment from before "Traits and Doctrines are on the whole are Points that do not fuel Purchases and the bean counters do not like such things. " is a driving factor for GW.
I would also like to add that Traits and Doctrines are starting to look more and mor unbalanced now in comparison to the other lists, so have become even more convinced that they will be gone when the IG and SMs are redone. I also think the Wargear in these armies will be limited when redone.

 

[Jacobite]

Yea I can't really imagine the Honorifica Imperialis, Medallion Crimson or the Macharian Cross being available in a new IG Dex given the current trends.

And if you look at the IG Dex at the moment its armoury is pretty much no existant anyway.

 

[Pandawithissues...]

Quick point - I don't really agree that removing doctrines would particularly streamline the game. Most guard players are vets of the hobby and can handle such things. Lets face it prob 80%of brand new 40k players are kids and will buy space marines of one sort or another, thats why they can and will alter that codex. Plus, every time a new codex space marines comes out, it prob outsells all the others combined.