[GhostDog]

Amongst my friends who play 40k I have one who is a Eldar player. My other friends and I like to tease him that the Avatar is really a daemon. In fact a Greater Daemon if you will.

All though it started as a joke if you look at the facts it might not be very far from the truth.
I'll list the facts as I see them below and then see where it goes from there.

1. a) According to Lexicanum an Avatar is an incarnation of the Eldar War God, Kaela Mensha Khaine. During the Fall of the Eldar, Khaine fought with Slaanesh shortly after his birth, following the destruction of the Eldar gods. During the battle, Khaine's essence was dismantled and scattered across the many galaxy, landing in the hearts of the remaining Eldar Craftworlds. Wherever his essence landed, a wraith artifact was created, allowing future Eldar to be able to summon him when needed.

b) According to Lexicanum a daemon is an entity of the warp, and servants of the Gods of Chaos. They are created at the whim of a Chaos god from a fraction of the god's own power and act as an extension of their will. A daemon's appearance and character reflect the god's own nature. These daemons may be reabsorbed into the god at whim.

So both Avatars and daemons are an essence or fraction of the respective god.

2. For both Avatar and daemon to inhabit real space they need to be summoned by inhabiting a living body.

3. When the body of the Avatar or Daemon is destroyed the essence returns from where it came.

So to start, there are 3 facts for the argument of the Avatar as a daemon.
Bring on the arguments against it.

Also sorry if this has already been a thread on the forums. I did a quick search but couldn't see anything in the first few pages, and most of them seemed to come from the army list forums.

GhostDog

 

[Tim/Steve]

yes, its a daemon... its a rival to all the classic daemons of the warp, but its still a daemon.

 

[Bubblematrix]

I am not sure it is true any more (I am at work so don't have my codex) but certainly in the past rules wise the Avatar was in fact a daemon, I can tell you it made GK a bastard to play against.

Fluff wise I think it is also true that the Avatar fullfills all the requirements for a daemon, there is some debate as to how the Eldar gods exist and plenty of discussion on it, but considering the ritual of the young king etc the Avatar seems to be a daemon.

Hope this helps

 

[ClassyRaptor]

The Spirit of the Avatar of War, Keala Mensha Khaine I think, takes the body of and Eldar Exarch in a ritual sort of thing.

 

[Belthazor Aurellius]

Daemonic posession, but from a daemon that fights for the Eldar, not against them, I think, is the idea. Not that it counts as canon, but they call the Avatar a daemon in Dawn of War 2

 

[GrizBe]

The Avatar IS a Daemon, its classed as one for the purpose of rules. As said, the Avatar is a constuct brought to life by the sacrifice of an Exarch, and then possessed by a portion of the eldar god Khaine. Its a warp entity, just like Daemons.

 

[KiLlaKhOrNe]

no there not. when slanesh defeated kain she didnt compleatly kill him his soul was seperated and scattered so he cant some back... but each part of his soul went into every avatar so the avatars hold the shards of khains existance and its proficised that when the final avatar dies khain will return to wreak vengence on slanesh

 

[effigy22]

Read the Daemon Hunter Codex on "Why daemonhunters would fight eldar"

The best line in the book being the last bullet point:

- The avatar is daemon and thus needs to be destroyed. (not exact wording as working from memory)

 

[Baron Spikey]

no there not. when slanesh defeated kain she didnt compleatly kill him his soul was seperated and scattered so he cant some back... but each part of his soul went into every avatar so the avatars hold the shards of khains existance and its proficised that when the final avatar dies khain will return to wreak vengence on slanesh

What you've just said describes a daemon perfectly- they're all a portion of the God they serve, a Blood Thirster was created by Khorne separating a part of his conciousness and power, giving it form and personality.

Avatar's don't possess the Exarch's who are sent to awaken them in the same manner that a Chaos Daemon does- the Young King is a sacrifice to appease the spirit of Khaine, the Avatar already has a body made of iron and molten steel to inhabit.

 

[Barnster]

no there not. when slanesh defeated kain she didnt compleatly kill him his soul was seperated and scattered so he cant some back... but each part of his soul went into every avatar so the avatars hold the shards of khains existance and its proficised that when the final avatar dies khain will return to wreak vengence on slanesh

Not quite

Khaine fought the newly borne Slaanesh, Slaanesh then gained the upper hand, however Khorne got involved and said that Khaine would be his slave, The clash of the 3 gods forceed khaine into the real world, where he shattered into many bits.

The avatars can never truly die and Khaine will never form whole again.

The Eldar god that is forming is Ynead, god of the dead, It is thought that once the very last eldar dies at the great battle against chaos, the Rhana Dandra, Ynead would be powerful enough to destroy chaos

But back to topic the avatar is daemon, it is a being whose existance is a manefestion of a god's will. Hey it even has the special rule Daemon!

 

[Bubblematrix]

I was always under the impression that the "sacrifice" was exactly that - a possetion, but I may be wrong. I thought the steel body was the supernatural body created upon possetion and assumed that it had to be an exarch on the path of war so as to give the opening for the demon to take possetion.

 

[Barnster]

The Body of the Avatar is there all the time in the centre of the craftworld, the ritual merely awakes the avatar, thats where the eldar avatar differs from a daemon of chaos.

No one knows what happens to the exarch, other than the farseers and they won't talk about it, all we know is that the body of the exarch dissappears

Chaos daemons are summoned directly from the warp, the eldar one awakes in time of great crisis and war

 

[DonFer]

Read the Daemon Hunter Codex on "Why daemonhunters would fight eldar"

The best line in the book being the last bullet point:

- The avatar is daemon and thus needs to be destroyed. (not exact wording as working from memory)

The DH Codex sez:

Daemonhunters would fight eldar becuase:

-The Avarar is pretty much a daemon when you think about it.

So I think this places the Avatar in the daemon category. Moreover, the fact that the avatar comes from the sacrifice of an Exarch, pretty much puts it there.

 

[GrizBe]

Yeah.. anything that requires blood sacrifice is pretty demonic in the 40k world.

 

[Stephen_Newman]

I disagree. As stated before the avatar is always present in the craftworld but is "activated" by the sacrifice of the young king. This, I believe, is more like the activation of a machine.

Think about it the entire process is very similar to the activation of wraith constructs like the wraithguard. They both involve an empty shell being powered by the blood of a victim (In wraith activation the spiritseer spills blood on the spirit stone) to create a powerful being. Now I know that you would never call a wraithlord a daemon so in theory neither is the avatar. In fact this process is similar to the creation of the marine dreadnoughts (empty shell powered by a dead or near dead person in this case) which I know you would never classify as a daemon.

By this logic the avatar is not a daemon because its "summoning" technique is too similar to the friendly wraithlord and dreadnoughts.

 

[GrizBe]

Technically you could call a Wraithlord a kind of ghoul since its powered by the souls of the dead in the spiritstones...

But then, what would you call a Brass Scorpian, or a Soulgrinder? Both are machines powered by demonic essence and souls, and both are demonic constructs...

Similarly, you could call the Phoenix Lords Daemons in a way... all of the souls of the armours previous inhabitants are stored within it, making it stronger over time, and each time a new occupant takes up the armour, they become The Phoenix lord... so its a form of possession...

 

[GhostDog]

Glad to see so many people agreeing with my views. It will make the case more fun next time I play against my friends Eldar. :grin:

I disagree. As stated before the avatar is always present in the craftworld but is "activated" by the sacrifice of the young king. This, I believe, is more like the activation of a machine.

Think about it the entire process is very similar to the activation of wraith constructs like the wraithguard. They both involve an empty shell being powered by the blood of a victim (In wraith activation the spiritseer spills blood on the spirit stone) to create a powerful being. Now I know that you would never call a wraithlord a daemon so in theory neither is the avatar. In fact this process is similar to the creation of the marine dreadnoughts (empty shell powered by a dead or near dead person in this case) which I know you would never classify as a daemon.

By this logic the avatar is not a daemon because its "summoning" technique is too similar to the friendly wraithlord and dreadnoughts.

So you're saying the Avatar is a daemon-machine? Interesting... :biggrin:
When I said that the Avatar is summoned I should have said the spirit of Kaela Mensha Khaine. I remember reading something a long time ago how the shell of the Avatar is just that, a shell, until the summoning ritual and then the full fury of Kaela Mensha Khaine is released upon the Craftworlds enemies. That says daemon to me.

 

[Stephen_Newman]

Yeah but whilst a normal chaos daemon inhabits a bit of what their master stands for like horrors are constantly changing in appearance like Tzeentch himself. However the avatar IS a god-albeit a very small part of a god.

As stated before the avatar holds too much in common with wraithlords and dreadnoughts to be classified a daemon in my mind.

 

[GrizBe]

Yet as said, Wraithlords are constructs powered by souls, just like Brass Scorpians etc... and they're classed as daemons.

 

[Davidicus 40k]

Interesting question. I think it is, but not in the traditional sense. The Avatar is a manifestation of Khaine while a Warp-daemon does not necessarily have to represent one of the Chaos Gods. Plus some of the other arguments about the Avatar's body being present on the Craftworlds, waiting only to be activated. The Imperium would consider it a daemon no doubt, and it does look fairly daemonic, but it's a representation of a war god. What do you expect?

It seems like the summoning processes for both the Avatar and a traditional daemon are similar, though, so this puts it in the "quasi-daemon" category for me. In the end, I wouldn't want to face it in battle (unless I had a sure way of killing it).