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For purposes of all the grey knight special rules is he considered a daemon? I know some rules say that you cannot use the power against the DP in particular but what about powers and rules that make no specific mention to him?
 

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he doesnt have the daemon special rule so hes technicaly not a daemon so no you cant use grey knight abilitys on him however you can on the avatar of khaine
 

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The Chaos Daemon's Daemon Prince is.
The Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince isn't. Despite the name...

This is a bad oversight from the Chaos book. Its ok, you can blame Gav Thorpe. It's also an oversight in the DH codex as some of the units it lists as affecting no longer exist which is why the CSM DP is not affected.

Stupid, I know.
 

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He is a daemon.

You don't need the "Daemon" special rule to be a daemon. Remember, all Daemons in CSM don't have the "Daemon" rule, but if you tried to claim that lesser/greater daemons weren't daemons, you'd be in danger of a BRB to forehead from your opponent. In the same vein, some ork special rules reference Orks, but there isn't an "Ork" special rule - you have to use common sense.
 

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He is a daemon. You don't need the "Daemon" special rule to be a daemon. Remember, all Daemons in CSM don't have the "Daemon" rule, but if you tried to claim that lesser/greater deamons weren't daemons, you'd be in danger of a BRB to forehead from your opponent.
actually having the name daemon does not make you a daemon ruleswise, retarded?, yes very, but you can't do anything about it if someone turns around and says there daemon is not a daemon, any normal person I'm sure would be fine with it, but if you bump into an asshole then tough luck.
 

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Remember, all Daemons in CSM don't have the "Daemon" rule, but if you tried to claim that lesser/greater daemons weren't daemons, you'd be in danger of a BRB to forehead from your opponent.
They don't but the Daemonhunter lists them specifically as being affected by powers/weapons. Feel free to ignore it in friendly games but in competitive games its something to be aware of.

I think that everyone is agreeing its pretty stupid btw.
 

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He is a daemon.

You don't need the "Daemon" special rule to be a daemon. Remember, all Daemons in CSM don't have the "Daemon" rule, but if you tried to claim that lesser/greater daemons weren't daemons, you'd be in danger of a BRB to forehead from your opponent. In the same vein, some ork special rules reference Orks, but there isn't an "Ork" special rule - you have to use common sense.
Incorrect. Daemon is a special rule. There is no Foo rule in 40K, being a Daemon prince does not make you a daemon any more than being a Daemon hunter does.

Aramoro
 

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They don't but the Daemonhunter lists them specifically as being affected by powers/weapons. Feel free to ignore it in friendly games but in competitive games its something to be aware of.

I think that everyone is agreeing its pretty stupid btw.
Could you give me a page reference where they define what a "Daemon" is? I can't find a mention of Greater of Lesser daemons in the codex at all.

But like I said, there's no Orks don't need a special rule to define them, some daemons have a special rule called Daemon which happens to give them extra special rules, that doesn't make them the only Daemons in the game. If the rule you're using says "Against models with the Daemon special rule", then it only works against C:CD and the Eldar Avatar. But the stuff in C:DH only says against "Daemons", and I'm pretty sure the Runic Blade in the Space wolves does as well. It doesn't say "Models with the Daemons rule".

Incorrect. Daemon is a special rule. There is no Foo rule in 40K, being a Daemon prince does not make you a daemon any more than being a Daemon hunter does.

Aramoro
Daemons is the name of a Special Rule that some units have, and the name of a class of models. Some models are Daemons with a Daemons rule. Some models are Daemons, but they don't have Daemons rule.
 

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So all Daemon Hunters are Daemons then? Classes of models are always defined by special rules with exception of Race type which is dependent on codex.

Everything in the Ork codex is an 'Ork' , everything in the 'Tyrinid' Codex is a Tyrinid. Everything in the Chaos Daemons Codex is a Chaos Daemon (not a Daemon) everything in the Chaos Space Marines Codex is a Chaos Space Marine. That's how it works. It just so happens that All the Chaos Daemons have the Daemon special rule as well, as well as the Eldar Avatar.

Aramoro
 

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So Daemon rules = Daemon

Daemon Prince : CD = Daemon
Daemon Prince : CSM = Not a Daemon

Hmmm... Clear as mud lol
in basic black and white yes, it appears when you are granted daemonhhod in a chaos space marine army your not becoming a daemon, just growing a little taller and uglier.
 

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Ok, so let me ask you this. For the 2-3 years between the release of the Eldar Codex, were the Daemon Hunters rules useless? because there wasn't a Daemon rule before that. In the year or two between the Eldar codex and the C:CD codex, was their only target the Avatar?
 

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Ok, so let me ask you this. For the 2-3 years between the release of the Eldar Codex, were the Daemon Hunters rules useless? because there wasn't a Daemon rule before that. In the year or two between the Eldar codex and the C:CD codex, was their only target the Avatar?
Yes.

Aramoro
 

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Well to be fair I think not before codex deamons and the avatar there was no need for the deamon rule to be there so the gear worked, but when those 2 books came out things changed and the things called deamons needed the rule to also be affected.Without a faq the stupidity will continue im afraid.
 

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Well to be fair I think not before codex deamons and the avatar there was no need for the deamon rule to be there so the gear worked, but when those 2 books came out things changed and the things called deamons needed the rule to also be affected.Without a faq the stupidity will continue im afraid.
Daemons were a major component of the Chaos codex in 3rd/4th editions. They were split of as a seperate codex at the end of 4th.


So, history lesson here. There was a Chaos codex, and it was good and awesome, and had daemons and spiky marines. You could make either a Daemons army or a Marine army, or a mix with this book. Then, there came along a book of Daemon Hunters, who had special rules against Daemons. There was no "Daemons" rule, but people were sensible, and knew a daemon when they saw one.

This golden age went on for many years. Eventually, the Eldar 4th Ed codex came out, in which was the Avatar. It had a "Daemon" rule for the avatar. The reason was obviously because a lot of people wouldn't realise it was demonic, if not specifically told about it. That was all fine, there were daemons in the chaos book, and the Avatar. Everyone knew what a daemon was, and there wasn't even a rule for it.

Then, tragedy struck, the 4th Ed chaos codex was released. They still had daemons, not interesting ones however. It might be noted though that, just like in the previous codex, there wasn't a "daemons" special rule in the book. People still used Daemon hunters, and the Daemons in the Chaos Codex were still affected by them. Everyone knew this, and it was obvious.

Finally, C:CD came out. A whole army of deamons, and the designers decided to bunch up all their special rules into one happy package - the Deamon special rule, which combined EW, fearless, demonic assault, invulnerable and demonic rivalry into a single, catch all rule, so they didn't have to repeat them all for every entry in the book. This is where it gets complicated. For some reason, people suddenly don't know what a "Daemon" is anymore. Even when the Avatar had the "Daemon" rule, you'd get laughed at for saying it was the only daemon affected. For 5 years, people could tell you what a daemon was, but now it's debatable. Because there's a Daemon rule, it doesn't mean we shouldn't treat those other Daemons just as we have ever since the DH codex came out. Nothing else changed, the designers just used a catch all "Daemon" rule to help cut down on the number of rules they had to write in each entry.
 

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Well done!

Although to correct your history the previous eldar codex in 1996 also listed the avatar as a daemon:grin:
 

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At any time in the Chaos Daemons codex is its stated "Any model that does not have the Special Rule 'Daemon' is not considered one" ?

For a battle between CSM and DH, the Chaos Daemons codex might as well not exist. It doesn't supersede CSM rules or DH rules. The CSM codex has "Daemons" in it, and theres really no way around that. In fact, their only classification is whether they are "Greater" or "Lesser" daemons. Any rule the DH: codex has against daemons applies to them.
 

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for fluff c:cs deamon prince is a deamon rules wise he isnt cause he isnt listed as being a daemon in unit type or having a rule that states him as a daemon so yeah he isnt a daemon
 
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