[HiveMinder]

With the coming of the new VC book, it seems a popular topic of debate is whether IoN can affect characters. The rules, are a little murky, so here's what we have to work with.

Some magic spells and items can resurrect fallen warriors in an Undead uint by restoring a number of Wounds' worth of models to the unit. If the target consists of a single model, such as a lone character or a Corpse cart, then it can never exceed its starting Wounds value.

And then later in the rule:

A unit cannot usually be taken beyond its starting size, though certain powers, spells and special rules may provide exceptions. Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts. If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost Wounds.]

And, just for completeness, here's the BRB rule for Lone Characters:

Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes.

So here's my synopsis of the problem. The first quote mentions lone characters, clearly indicating that they are viable targets of IoN. The second quote is dealing with the extent to which IoN can affect a unit. It is basically saying that 1) The unit cannot exceed its starting size, unless stated otherwise, and 2) If the unit has a character joined to it, the character cannot benefit from IoN.

So, as I understand the rule, lone characters can benefit from IoN, but if they join a unit, they will not.

 

[Aramoro]

That is my understanding as well, a Lone vampire can heal a wound from IoN but not if he's in a unit.

 

[olderplayer]

Agreed a character or its mount (if separate wounds) can heal a wound with Nehek if not attached to a unit. I think the discussion in the box on resurrecting wounds is pretty clear on this. However, does the lore attribute also potentially allows a second wound to be restored for successfully casting an augment given the rule that only 1 wound can be restored for each casting of Nehek?

 

[HiveMinder]

Agreed a character or its mount (if separate wounds) can heal a wound with Nehek if not attached to a unit. I think the discussion in the box on resurrecting wounds is pretty clear on this. However, does the lore attribute also potentially allows a second wound to be restored for successfully casting an augment given the rule that only 1 wound can be restored for each casting of Nehek?

I don't see why not. The lore attribute is a separate effect, not a bonus tacked on to the spell being cast, therefore it doesn't interfere with IoN's stipulation that vampires may only recover a single wound. However, it should be noted that while the IoN wound could be given to the mount or character, the lore attribute can ONLY effect the character (assuming he was the one who cast the spell).

And secondly, the Vampires lore attribute, Curse of Undeath, triggers with ANY successful spell cast from the Lore, not just augment spells as your post suggests. I think you're confusing them with the Tomb Kings, whose lore attribute does only trigger on augment spells.

 

[Warsmith Drewgie]

I would argue that invocation cannot affect characters at all because Resurrecting Fallen Warriors states "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts." Nowhere in IoN does it say that it can be used on characters however the lore attribute says "The Wizard (or another friendly model within 12") instantly recovers a single Wound lost earlier in the battle." The wizard being a character implies that characters can be affected by the lore attribute, and this is why Resurrecting Fallen Warriors states that individual models can't be taken above starting size simply for the purpose of regaining wounds from the lore attribute. I think people are reading too much into this. As I said nowhere in invocation does it specifically state that characters can be affected. Until an FAQ comes out I will continue to play my VC with rules as written.

 

[olderplayer]

Interesting point. I do believe that an FAQ does need to clarify this issue. The importance of the proviso "Unless specifically stated otherwise..." should be read in the context of the language of the Nehek spell itself and the rest of the text box on page 26. If you read the text box on page 26, it earlier clearly states that "If the target consists of a single model, such as a lone character or a Corpse Cart, then it can never exceed its starting Wounds value" and the last sentence says, "If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost Wounds." Nehek targets "all friendly Undead units" within range. A lone character model is considered a unit in WHFB. These imply to me that lone character models can be targetted by Nehek when not attached to units of other models.

 

[ExtraCrew]

I agree with olderplayer's interpretation.

 

[Warsmith Drewgie]

Then you have to ask yourself is it "specifically stating" that the characters can be targeted or are you just assuming so based on the fact that they are technically a "unit". Furthermore the text box on page 26 is referring to regaining wounds from any source, not just IoN, which includes the lore attribute which does specifically state "The Wizard" meaning it specifically states a character. However that character or single model (corpse cart, mortis engine, vhargulf etc) can not go above its starting number of wounds. IoN doesn't specify characters but can still affect units characters join, but you can't put the wounds on the character that joined that unit. This is what the rules are trying to convey.
If you read IoN it clarifies how many wounds each of the unit types can gain, although it lists infantry, it does not list infantry (characters), since it doesn't tell you anywhere in the spell how the spell affects characters but does clarify every other unit type I think your loose assumption that characters are units is a wishful stretch. However the best solution obviously is to discuss it with your local gaming group, and get a common consensus of how they wish to treat it until the FAQ gets released.

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

...is it "specifically stating" that the characters can be targeted or are you just assuming so based on the fact that they are technically a "unit"....

...although it lists infantry, it does not list infantry (characters), since it doesn't tell you anywhere in the spell how the spell affects characters....

I think your analysis is backwards:

(1) the BRB states that lone characters are units;

(2) the type infantry (character) is a character that follows the rules of infantry;

Therefore, as the spell lacks any rule preventing characters from being affected it affects them as infantry, with the cap imposed by the regaining wounds rules.

Seeking consensus form your group before playing is an excellent idea though.

 

[forkbanger]

Therefore, as the spell lacks any rule preventing characters from being affected it affects them as infantry, with the cap imposed by the regaining wounds rules.

The VC book says that-

Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts.

And Invocation doesn't specifically state that it can affect characters. The Lore attribute would allow the caster to heal himself, though, as that is specific ("The Wizard").

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

Drat you Forkbanger with your correct answers.

 

[DecrepitDragon]

I have to agree with Warsmith on this one.

We seem to be debating whether we can circumvent a models "character" appelation, by simply stating that it is also a unit, and therefore under certain conditions it becomes eligible to be healed.

Unfortunately, at no point does it ever lose its "character" description. It is ALSO a unit, certainly, but its still tagged as a character so we must take that into account, and not simply gloss over it when its a single model.

At no point does IoN "specifically state" that it may be cast on characters, so it cant be cast on characters. Its really as simple as it sounds.

Character healing has been worked into the book with the magic lore attribute, and the Vamps combat healing rules. That does leave some of the character options with no healing, but we all know Vamps and Necromancers are a pain to kill completely, so it fits fluff-wise.

 

[olderplayer]

Interesting responses. I have a major tourney coming up this weekend and expect this issue to arise. I agree that it appears that the intent was to not let characters heal directly from Nehek given the language in the box, but rather to heal characters through the Lore attribute (which also applies whemn Danse and Vigor and the other spells are cast in range of a character), but the way the language is written appears to imply that lone character models can be targetted and get their one wound directly from Nehek and I expect to see someone argue that at some point for a character on a coven throne and monstrous mount. The spell hits/targets all units within range and a lone character is a unit under the rules. The rules says characters cannot benefit unless specifically allowed, which they are when not in units. The box rule and Nehek spell as written leave an ambiguity there that I expect some VC players to exploit.

 

[Aramoro]

Ressurecting Fallen Warriors is really poorly worded but this is a very edge case where it might work as it does say that it unless otherwise stated it cannot heal Characters or Their mounts which to me say they cannot heal someone on a Coven Throne but if it was just the Vampire by themselves they maybe could.

 

[olderplayer]

Agreed. The first part of the rules box on page 26 seems to imply that a lone character model can recover a wound. The important words are in the Nehek spell it says "all friendly Undead units" within range are targetted and, when combined with BRB, pg.96 "Lone Characters", "Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes." would suggest that lone characters can be targetted by the spell, providing the exception to the rule in the text box on page 26 of the VC book that "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts."
I think that the issue is about as clear as mud.

Think about it this way: a corpse cart within range of a cast Nehek spell can regain a lost wound, but, if some are correct in their reading of the text on page 26 of the VC army book, then a corpse cart with a Necromanser on it cannot regain a lost wound when Nehek is cast within range.

 

[DecrepitDragon]

Once again, GW badly word a rule and leave it to players to sort it out eh? Typical.

I think what convinces me most is the somewhat round about definition of when a character is not a character.

As others have suggested, a lone character acts as its unit type and has all applicable rules. Sounds straight forward, but when you have to go digging around the rulebook to find a work-around, its difficult to mesh that with the phrase "specifically states".

If you have to find, for want of a better term, a work-around, then the rule in question cant be "specifically stating" anything. Its ambiguously suggesting.

For me, its simpler in my mind to call a character a character at all times, and apply the restrictions from there.

 

[olderplayer]

Bounced this off a number of players, including VC players, on our local club site. At least until an FAQ, the impression is that the specifically states language limits the ability to apply Nehek to characters to the lore attribute even if there are subtle inconsistencies in the language as written. It is really hard to write perfect rules, as I have learned when writing objectives and special rules for local one-day tournament games. Given how well the VC book was written in terms of balancing the points and rules, I will not criticize the author for one or two instances where one might have missed something or not clarified a rule enough. I suspect that the author pulled language from the old book and realized that, with the Vampire lore attribute, one could abuse Nehek to regain two wounds on a character with a single spell and wanted to rule that out. Under the reading that our group has tentatively agreed to or understood, a lone character and its mount cannot regrow a wound with Nehek even if the monstrous mount or chariot mount would be able to regain a wound if their was no character mounted on it.

 

[HiveMinder]

So, we are all in agreement that a lone character is considered a unit for game purposes. And, if we ignore the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule for just a moment, it would be a valid target for IoN, as it is a unit.

Okay. So, since it is a valid target, let's look at Resurrecting Fallen Warriors, which is an addendum to 'spells and items that restore lost wounds'. As IoN is a spell, it is affected by the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule. As many have said, "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells or items cannot heal characters or their mounts", would prevent characters from being healed by IoN, because IoN doesn't specifically say so.

However, it DOES specifically say earlier in the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule that Lone Characters can be affected by spells and items that restore lost wounds (IoN). So, yes, IoN doesn't specifically state it, but the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule specifically states it.

Furthermore, lone characters with mounts are still lone character units. So, any wound they regain from IoN could be applied to either the mount OR the character, as IoN says that the unit regains a wound.

 

[AustinVonCarstein]

IoN does specifically say "all friendly Undead units" which overrides that part at the bottom on RFW about not healing characters.

Characters that are undead can be healed.

Keep in mind the rules in RFW are for any and all other armies as well. So if you play a mixed army, the army that is not Undead can't regain wounds from IoN. So any other spell from other Lores or items that heal wounds cannot heal characters or their mounts. (unless the spell specifically says.)

It's all worded to make sure you are only using IoN on the VC army.

Heal your lone characters and their mounts!!!