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Discussion Starter #1
So I was wondering what happened to all the primarchs post Heresy. I did my homework and found out that many of the Fallen Primarchs are alive and well, in a cosy demon infested planet ready to destroy everything in their path. In return, no primarch is alive this side of the warp. Not that this makes any difference since the Fallen are mightier that any of the loyal primarchs (or any of the heroes of the Imperium for that matter).

So my question is this, does humanity have any chance of whitstanding an assault from a Fallen primarch?? I mean every Primarch that has clashed against a Fallen has died (was completely crushed is more a more accurate term I guess). Even the Emperor was beaten to a pulp by Horus. To add insult to injury, the Fallen are all daemons now so it is almost impossible to destroy them, so the Imperium just has to settle with the "banishment for XX years" technique.

Are the Fallen too powerful for humanity? The way I see it there is no chance of beating Chaos without a huge, inmense, gargatuan sacrifice (which BTW seems to be the Impeium's only way of winning battles and wars these days). What do you guys think? Isn't it time that humanity has a champion to kick some Chaos ass? I mean if there's not, then what's the point of keep fighting? What do you reckon?
 

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Bane of Empires
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So my question is this, does humanity have any chance of whitstanding an assault from a Fallen primarch??
Daemon Primarch incursions into the Imperium are extremely rare. One example of the Imperium 'prevailing' against a Daemon Primarch is the First War for Armageddon where Angron was banished back to the Warp by the Grey Knights.

The reason why this is possible is because the Daemon Primarchs are just that, Daemons. They cannot easily sustain themselves in the Material Realm, and it takes a monumental effort to summon, guide and direct a daemonic incursion.

Are the Fallen too powerful for humanity? The way I see it there is no chance of beating Chaos without a huge, inmense, gargatuan sacrifice (which BTW seems to be the Impeium's only way of winning battles and wars these days). What do you guys think? Isn't it time that humanity has a champion to kick some Chaos ass? I mean if there's not, then what's the point of keep fighting? What do you reckon?
The Imperium are lucky in that the sense that the Daemon Primarchs for all intents and purposes no longer care about the Imperium, they are primarily only concerned with the Great Game and are content to wage wars against their rivals in the Eye of Terror/The Warp.
 

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The Imperium are lucky in that the sense that the Daemon Primarchs for all intents and purposes no longer care about the Imperium, they are primarily only concerned with the Great Game and are content to wage wars against their rivals in the Eye of Terror/The Warp.
Indeed. The First War of Armageddon was a truly brutal war, and was only won by the narrowest of margins. Had Logan Grimnar not had those one hundred Grey Knight Terminators with him, or had Angron proven victorious in their battle, things would have ended very differently.

There are few things in the galaxy that can stand before a Daemon Primarch and stand a chance at winning. Obviously, veteran Grey Knights in Terminator Armor can, other than that, I'd say a handful of the most skilled and veteran Inquisitors and Space Marines, armed with the best anti-daemon equipment, a ton of luck and the Immortal Emperor staring down on him, could stand a remote chance. Also, a loyal Primarch could, especially if he was equipped with anti-daemon weapons. Say what you want about the Guilliman vs Daemon Fulgrim battle, he may have lost, but I have no doubt that Guilliman gave one hell of a fight before his mortal wounding. Perhaps had he been armed with the appropriate weaponry, things could have turned out differently.
 

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Say what you want about the Guilliman vs Daemon Fulgrim battle, he may have lost, but I have no doubt that Guilliman gave one hell of a fight before his mortal wounding.
If I remember right, wasn't Guilliman also caught by surprise in that battle? All things said, the guy lasted more than a moment against a brother primarch powered by the energies of the warp, with a body mutated and altered to make him even more powerful while Guilliman cannot claim the same. (And then it was also one, two blades max against a daemon primarch armed with four poisoned blades and a daemonic body.)
 

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I had heard Guilliman was caught by surprise, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure. Unfortunately, the battle is described far less than the vague battle between Guilliman and the maybe Alpharius. All we knew is that Fulgrim was a Daemon Primarch and he slashed Guilliman's throat at the end. Personally, I believe it was truly awesome battle between Primarchs that ended with Guilliman's defeat.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Right, I agree with all of you.

But my point is still valid, Daemon Primarchs are one hell of a twisted and overpowered bunch. No one, not even the emperor hopes to stand a chance against them, or their generals (daemon princes). For all I know Logan practically sacrificed a full company of GK's to ONLY banish Angron (not destroy him). This seems like a terrible loss considering the GKs are a expensive comodity of the Imperium. And Fulgrim seems to have no scar or major wound to remind him of his battle with Guilliman. My take on all of this is I consider that daemon Primarchs, and even Daemon princes are way too powerful compared against anything Imperial. And even when they sacrify everything to defeat one, the damm Primarch will be coming back again and again and again...

This doesn't sound fair, in game therms at least. I cannot speak form experience but I reckon that a player that fields Abbadon, Fulgrim and a couple of daemon princes will kick his opponents ass just by puting the figures on the table (just exagerating a bit :biggrin:).
 

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Yeah, Grimnar didn't sacrifice one hundred grey knights just to banish one daemon-primarch. They also had to contend with his daemonic bodyguard of bloodthirster and the daemonic hordes that were following him, along with the human and traitor marine forces that the remaining loyalists forces were dealing with.

Remember DonFer, the Emperor was capable of dealing with a primarch fueled by multiple chaos gods. He held back, but he was still able to go toe to toe with one.

Daemon primarchs are powerful beings, but they are not ungodly powerful things that cannot be defeated. In the warp perhaps this is so, but in the material realm their power is confined based on how much the fabric of reality is compromised.
 

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Daemon primarchs are powerful beings, but they are not ungodly powerful things that cannot be defeated. In the warp perhaps this is so, but in the material realm their power is confined based on how much the fabric of reality is compromised.
So what your saying is....THE WARP DID IT!!! :wild:
 

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But my point is still valid, Daemon Primarchs are one hell of a twisted and overpowered bunch. No one, not even the emperor hopes to stand a chance against them, or their generals (daemon princes).
You're overestimating them a bit. The Emperor, while also often overestimated in power, is at least a match for the daemon primarchs and at most their superior by a suffecient amount. I doubt the chaos gods invested as much of their blessing into the other primarchs as they did into Horus, who the Emperor destroyed while purportedly holding back.

Daemon princes who aren't former primarchs wouldn't stand a chance against the Emperor, being inferior to and serving under greater daemons.

For all I know Logan practically sacrificed a full company of GK's to ONLY banish Angron (not destroy him). This seems like a terrible loss considering the GKs are a expensive comodity of the Imperium. And Fulgrim seems to have no scar or major wound to remind him of his battle with Guilliman. My take on all of this is I consider that daemon Primarchs, and even Daemon princes are way too powerful compared against anything Imperial. And even when they sacrify everything to defeat one, the damm Primarch will be coming back again and again and again...
The daemon primarchs aren't without their weaknesses. Their biggest one is that they only exist so as long as the chaos gods *want* them to exist. If they fall one too many times the powers might not consider them worth their while and cease to revive them. Or they can obliterate the primarchs on random whim; they are the *chaos* gods, after all. And, as mentioned before, they're much too preoccupied with the Great Game to mount any real, continuous attack against the Imperium, making their immortality largely incidental. They won't be coming back "again and again and again" because they've got other crap to do.
 

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The daemon primarchs aren't without their weaknesses. Their biggest one is that they only exist so as long as the chaos gods *want* them to exist. If they fall one too many times the powers might not consider them worth their while and cease to revive them. Or they can obliterate the primarchs on random whim; they are the *chaos* gods, after all. And, as mentioned before, they're much too preoccupied with the Great Game to mount any real, continuous attack against the Imperium, making their immortality largely incidental. They won't be coming back "again and again and again" because they've got other crap to do.
Quite right. Daemon Princes may be immortal, but like any Daemon, they are subject to the whims of the Chaos Gods. I recall one Word Bearer Daemon Prince that was turned into a Chaos Spawn by the Gods. Though admittedly, it's highly unlikely that such a fate would befall the Daemon Primarchs.

It's quite fortunate that the Daemon Primarchs have done very little since their ascension. In fact, aside from Angron, the others haven't really done much outside the Eye of Terror. Magnus once tried to invade the homeworld of the Space Wolves, only to have Russ's spear poked into his eye, but other than that, the others have done nothing to the Imperium directly.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So what your saying is....THE WARP DID IT!!! :wild:
:so_happy:

So now I have our thoughts about this matter (and i thank you all for them), allow me to be a bit anoying :biggrin: for the sake of a good discussion, and bare with me the following. I can agree that eventough Chaos has some nasty fellas on their side, they are unable to produce a sizable threat to the imperium, because mainly they are...errr.. well Chaos. Point noted. But the thing is, total destruction of Humanity (and let´s say the other races of the Universe for this matter) does not come from Chaos only because the Chaos Gods don't want to. They are always concerned with "other matters" and they are simply incapable of focusing in the most important thing there is to their existence: Corruption of humanity.

Now Abbadon has been able to shake the Imperium greatly with his 13th Crusade, which is a sizable atempt to move in the direction of the ultimate path (corruption of course).

So to sum things up, and of course your thought in this matter will be gratly appreciated, Chaos just doesn't destroy the Imperium just beacuse they don't want to? Which in turn should be a blessing to the Imperium for it has no real strength to defeat Chaos even if they want to? Remember that the Emperor, the only human powerful enough to destroy a major Daemon is for all purposes, dead.

BTW the las though brings me to a thing I have been nurturing a bit lately. If the Imperium holds the Emperor as a god, isn't it possible that with all the worshipping and stuff, the Emperor actually becomes a god?

Lots of questions and hope to hear your thoughts.

Cheers everyone!
 

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I can agree that eventough Chaos has some nasty fellas on their side, they are unable to produce a sizable threat to the imperium, because mainly they are...errr.. well Chaos.
Not necessarily true. Even if chaos incursions were small and infrequent enough to be easily toppled by the Imperium, which I don't believe to be true, the very existence of chaos is a threat to the Imperium. Consider that humans are an emotional creature, fully capable of feeding the chaos gods, that rely on the warp for much of their technology. The opppresive nature of the Imperium drives its subjects to chaos, which, in turn, threatens to overthrow the stability the Imperium is based on.

They are always concerned with "other matters" and they are simply incapable of focusing in the most important thing there is to their existence: Corruption of humanity.
Perhaps the chaos gods themselves don't realize it, but I'm not entirely sure chaos *needs* to focus on corrupting humanity. Humanity will come to chaos regardless of the effort of the powers. And even humans loyal to the Imperium are feeding chaos with the various wants and needs of daily life.

So to sum things up, and of course your thought in this matter will be gratly appreciated, Chaos just doesn't destroy the Imperium just beacuse they don't want to?
As present, I'm not entirely sure chaos can destroy the Imperium even if it wanted to, at least not by itself.

Remember that the Emperor, the only human powerful enough to destroy a major Daemon is for all purposes, dead.
I have no idea how often the Imperium fights greater daemons, but I'm sure that they've crossed paths and triumphed over a number of them. The expansion to the second Dawn of War ends with a small band of Space Marines defeating a greater daemon of Nurgle.

BTW the las though brings me to a thing I have been nurturing a bit lately. If the Imperium holds the Emperor as a god, isn't it possible that with all the worshipping and stuff, the Emperor actually becomes a god?
Some people think he will. Other people think he already has.
 

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I have no idea how often the Imperium fights greater daemons, but I'm sure that they've crossed paths and triumphed over a number of them. The expansion to the second Dawn of War ends with a small band of Space Marines defeating a greater daemon of Nurgle.
There's a difference between defeating and utterly destroying daemons. If a daemon is destroyed in our universe, its consciousness is banished back into the Warp, where it will either regain its strength and physical body, or in other instances, absorbed back into its creator.
 

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I'm pretty sure, if needed, an Inquisitor can use psykers to down the entirety of a Greater Daemon. Anything strong enough can kill their physical manifestations in the material world. As Akatsuki13 noted, their consciousness can reform in the warp. A powerful psyker, or group of psykers, could wipe out a Greater Daemon.

As far as Daemon Princes go, esp. the Daemon Primarchs, they were once mortal, so I think the mechanics may be a little more difficult.

I agree that Chaos couldn't wipe out the Imperium, but not for lack of power. Between their corrupting forces, daemonic incursions, cults, Chaos Marines, and Daemon Primarchs they have the strength to do it. The problem is Chaos itself. The gods don't even get along among one another, never mind pull together for a multi front assault. There is too much infighting. Not to mention the very nature of Chaos. Think of Tzenntch. Sometimes he plots against his OWN plans, just for the sake of change.

I think the Emperor, the rotting corpse sitting on the Golden Throne, is not a god, nor ever will be. I do think, due to the worship and such, that when the Emperor does finally physically die, his consciousness will coalesce into a warp entity. Remember, not all warp entities are malevolent.
 

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I think K3K3000 covered most of this, but I will add my thoughts to the mix.

I can agree that eventough Chaos has some nasty fellas on their side, they are unable to produce a sizable threat to the imperium, because mainly they are...errr.. well Chaos.
That is only when looking at Chaos' vassals as a direct, physical threat from the Eye of Terror. You have to take into account that Chaos has the potential to manifest in every single corner of the Imperium, no where is wholly safe.

"The threat that Chaos poses to Humanity far outweighs that of the most malevolent alien race or cataclysmic war. Chaos, being in part the dark shadow of the Human race, has the potential to fester in every corner of the Imperium. One individual's lapse in vigilance can allow countless Daemons to spill from the Warp into the material universe." (Codex: Daemonhunters, Page 11).

That is also not including the massive threat posed by the mortal followers of Chaos. The 13th Black Crusade was testament to the threat they collectively pose, having Cadia essentially under their control and the Cadian Gate at breaking point.

They are always concerned with "other matters" and they are simply incapable of focusing in the most important thing there is to their existence: Corruption of humanity.
I would also refute that the corruption of humanity is the sole most important thing in regards to their existence. Humanity as a species is already set upon the path of Chaos, the Emperor being the only entity preventing the utter enslavement of humanity to Chaos.

The Chaos Gods '(for the most part) care nothing for the affairs of mortals. They are only concerned with eternal flow of emotion across aeons.' (Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 14). In essence this is what the Great Game of Chaos revolves around, each god attempting to promote it's respective emotion whilst trying to hinder the flow of their oppossing gods emotions. If the damnation of humanity was so important, the gods would have allied again since the Heresy to achieve that goal.

In essence, the damnation of humanity has already been secured - and has been since the Horus Heresy, where the Emperor's plans were shattered and he himself placed beyond the ken of mortals. Thats what I would argue anyway.

So to sum things up, and of course your thought in this matter will be gratly appreciated, Chaos just doesn't destroy the Imperium just beacuse they don't want to? Which in turn should be a blessing to the Imperium for it has no real strength to defeat Chaos even if they want to? Remember that the Emperor, the only human powerful enough to destroy a major Daemon is for all purposes, dead.
Humanity is not in a position to destroy the mortal followers of Chaos, let alone Chaos itself.

The Chaos Gods themselves may not even be actively seeking the destruction of the Imperium, they may be indifferent, or even trying to prevent it (or maintain different intentions at different times). I would argue that the Chaos Gods are the entities benefiting the most by a long way by the stagnating status quo of M41. They are the ones who feed off of the bloodshed, false hope, stagnation and excess, and its unclear if they would be able to reap such rich rewards if the Imperium lay crumbled atop the corpse of their god, and the Warp and Realspace were one.

If the Imperium holds the Emperor as a god, isn't it possible that with all the worshipping and stuff, the Emperor actually becomes a god?
Well we know faith is a very important factor in the Realspace/Warp interaction. With untold trillions of humans worshipping the God-Emperor for thousands of years, it seems almost certain that it has had some effect on the Warp. Possibly a Warp Entity has already arisen in the depths of the Warp, maybe even completely seperate to the consciousness of the 'real' Emperor sat on the Golden Throne. This God-Emperor would be a bleak, unforgiving and terrible god though, the manifest will of the Imperial Cult - acting in whatever way the Imperial Cult demands of it (considering they are the ones who regulate and administer Imperial worship of the Emperor). A Chaos God that is inherently opposed to Chaos, and has its own ruthless desires for humanity.

Thats certainly one possibility anyway. Another is that the faith of countless trillions is somehow already empowering the Emperor and enabling him to maintain any form of consciousness at all to keep the Imperium bound together.

There are countless possibilities though.

A powerful psyker, or group of psykers, could wipe out a Greater Daemon.
They could yes, but it would take a monumental effort. For example take into account that 'Lords of Change are the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy, gifted with unparalleled psychic abilities and a near-infinite skill and expertise in the arcane sciences' (Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 31).

I agree that Chaos couldn't wipe out the Imperium, but not for lack of power. Between their corrupting forces, daemonic incursions, cults, Chaos Marines, and Daemon Primarchs they have the strength to do it. The problem is Chaos itself. The gods don't even get along among one another, never mind pull together for a multi front assault. There is too much infighting. Not to mention the very nature of Chaos. Think of Tzenntch. Sometimes he plots against his OWN plans, just for the sake of change.
True. But I think that just proves that the destruction of the Imperium is not needed to safeguard the existence of Chaos or to guarantee 'the eternal flow of emotion across aeons'.
 

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No one, not even the emperor hopes to stand a chance against them, or their generals (daemon princes
) i beg to differ the emporer is the god although he is mortally wounded if one the primarchs stood in his path he would surely fall to the emporer
 

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leman russ would have killed magnus if he didnt escape with his treacherous powers
And Magnus could have killed Leman Russ and most of his Legion when they were still translating through the Warp towards Prospero...
 

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I can only think of 2 ocassions where a deamon primarch has been banished back to the warp. The "Reign of fire", the first war of armageddon. Where hundreds of grey knights died to banish Angron. And the battle of fenris where the spear of Russ was impaled into a partially formed Magnus.

Chaos is the greatest threat to the imperium, Thats why they have a totallitarian regeme to keep them in check, why the inquisition has so much power and authority.

Chaos is everywhere and their number is legion. Chaos isn't just the 9 CSM legions around the EoT, its in the heart and soul of every member of the imperium. 1 moment can send entire worlds and systems into heresy. The chaos marines may not have a mass material advantage to go toe to toe with the imperium but they could topple it if they even get through the gate.

The imperium is an incredably fragile system, held together by fear of retribution by the inquisition and of the "sky angels", but if that fear is lessened by gods and prophets giving protection...
 
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