[Jdojo18]

I was playing a game last night and a rule problem came up (of course) that dealt with instant death on my artillery crewman. I try and give my artillery crewman a FNP rule and an aegis line to keep them firing all game long without being in too much trouble, unless charged at.

I had some dark eldar drop down next to my crewman and use blasters on my T7 unit. My opponents were arguing with me about how their ST8 guns were instant killing my crewman because their T3 not 7, but I was arguing that you always use the T value of the artillery when shooting at them, so I still get my FNP.

To be honest, I had 20 crewman and they only had 3 ST8 wounds on me which wasn't going to do much, but they were really adamant that their ruling was right and I was wrong.

I know that in CC the arty use their individual Toughness, but I thought all shooting, of all kinds, uses the T value of the arty units and not the individual crewman.

I kept arguing, and they gave me my FNP, but I don't want to run into that issue again since I play with these guys frequently.

Who was right?:grin:

 

[MidnightSun]

T3 crewmen would still suffer Instant Death from Str6 or higher weapons - the T7 is only used for shooting in the sense of having to roll to wound. Basically, the artillery rule overrides the normal majority toughness rules and you use the toughness of the guns as the majority, but that doesn't stop effects such as Instant Death or a toughness-based ability such as Haemorrhage from taking effect.

 

[ntaw]

^ that one seems right to me.

Artillery uses the toughness of the gun despite number of crew for the purpose of being shot at and rolling to-wound, but wounds are still allocated to the closest model first (as per the BRB). If a S6+ wound is allocated to a T3 model, that's gunna negate FnP all day.

 

[Vaz]

The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.

7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.

If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains. Any Wounds that are caused are still allocated to the closest model first. If an Artillery unit chooses to Go to Ground, this does not increase the cover save of the guns – only the crew benefit.

Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule (see below)
if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value (after
modifiers) of that model.

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state that ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’, for example those inflicted by Perils of the Warp).

Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule.

"always used whilst at least one gun remains" is pretty self explanatory to me.

You should have kept your FNP.

 

[MidnightSun]

"always used whilst at least one gun remains" is pretty self explanatory to me.

You should have kept your FNP.

You use the toughness of the guns for the unit. FNP is negated if the attack is double the toughness of the model. At least, that's my interpretation of that.

How do you even get FNP on an artillery unit? Painboy in a unit of Mek Guns?

 

[Jdojo18]

"always used whilst at least one gun remains" is pretty self explanatory to me.

You should have kept your FNP.

That was my argument too. The gun didn't have the instant death special rule and was only St8 on my T7 unit. The ruling says to use the artillery unit's toughness in shooting attacks, so i argued that it didn't double me out. But with Midnight, that was their view too so that's why I came here.

You use the toughness of the guns for the unit. FNP is negated if the attack is double the toughness of the model. At least, that's my interpretation of that.

How do you even get FNP on an artillery unit? Painboy in a unit of Mek Guns?

They were the renegades ordnance batteries. There's an upgrade that can give them a 6+ feel no pain. A painboy in a unit of big gunz would work too.

 

[Vaz]

This is where the ordering rules don't support.

I can see the point of view what you were saying. I just don't agree with it, namely by way of Artillery explicitly calling out that when shooting at an artillery unit, you always use the toughness of the gun.

 

[Kreuger]

Is there any distinction between wounds allocated to the guns themselves vs. the surrounding crew?

If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains. Any Wounds that are caused are still allocated to the closest model first. If an Artillery unit chooses to Go to Ground, this does not increase the cover save of the guns – only the crew benefit.

The artillery rule seems to say that the crew can receive saves differently. So if they go to ground does that change how toughness or wound allocation functions?

 

[Vaz]

Not sure where you're getting that the crew recieve saves differently.

If you mean that the crew can Go to Ground and receive a benefit to their cover save resulting from that, then that's true, but they recieve that save no differently than any other unit. Only the guns have a specific rule against them getting a benefit to their save.

As to how toughness happens, nope. You roll to wound first (see the Shooting Sequence), which then allows you to choose to go to ground. It makes no difference however, as allocation happens as it must be the closest models to the shooter that are removed (unless something like Precision Shots, or Out of Range occurs).

You can then take your saves; these can be your Armour, Invulnerable, or Cover Saves. If you're still suffering an unsaved wound, and have FNP, you can take your FNP roll. It states that you may not take it against unsaved Instant Death wounds.

You have Instant Death if you have twice the toughness of the model you're allocating the wound to. Normally, you would, but as an artillery unit, "the toughness of the guns is always used".

If it said that "the toughness of the guns is used when rolling on the "To Wound" table, then sure. But it doesn't. The wording doesn't really support that way of thinking, and it's only by discounting the provision of "the toughness of the guns is always used". If there was a Shooting/Witchfire attack which required Toughness Test against a model in an Artillery unit, then that too would be against T7.

 

[Kreuger]

Thanks @Vaz for the clarification. I don't have the current rules (yet, it's on order) I was curious if there was a RAW vs RAI discussion in here but it seems like they align.

My perception is that using the higher toughness of the guns is designed to make artillery tougher and discourage off hand sniping.