[Khorne Aggression]

I've checked and double checked the spell text and rulebooks, etc.

Can you roll a ward save vs IG? The spell doesn't say you can't, but it also says everything is whisked away including any accompanying characters.

The reason I ask is that my buddy plays Skaven and he keeps casting the god damn Dreaded 13th and I can't figure out any way of getting around it. Rarely will I get 5-6 dispel dice and his Grey Seer is level 4, whereas the highest I can get at 1k points is a level 3 Sorcerer. That spell alone makes me not want to play the game anymore. It's not even fair. The Grey Seer can take it as the substitute spell, which is BS, and there's nothing you can do against it aside from taking a full Monstrous Infantry army, which is boring.

 

[KhainiteAssassin]

seeing as how ward saves are made as saves for individual models, not complete units, i am assuming you can have a ward save against the spell under the full unit ability, but not against the full unit ability

 

[Sethis]

As far as I'm aware, you can only take saves against wounds.

Gateway does not cause wounds when you roll 11 or 12, therefore you cannot take any form of save. The unit is simply removed on that result.

It's very slim odds of getting "removed from the game" with gateway anyway - first you need to get the spell off (and any sane opponent who knows you have it will horde his dispel dice) and then roll an 11 or 12 - the odds of which are, what, 1-in-18 or something? Assuming he's not packing a Dispel or Feedback Scroll.

Always good when it works though. :biggrin:

 

[KhainiteAssassin]

As far as I'm aware, you can only take saves against wounds.

Gateway does not cause wounds when you roll 11 or 12, therefore you cannot take any form of save. The unit is simply removed on that result.

It's very slim odds of getting "removed from the game" with gateway anyway - first you need to get the spell off (and any sane opponent who knows you have it will horde his dispel dice) and then roll an 11 or 12 - the odds of which are, what, 1-in-18 or something? Assuming he's not packing a Dispel or Feedback Scroll.

Always good when it works though. :biggrin:

anyone who has multiple caster models in which my tzeench army may or may not have, that can cast, can potentially get Gateway, in which can potentially be cast or not, it all depends on how many Dice you get compared to them

 

[Masked Jackal]

anyone who has multiple caster models in which my tzeench army may or may not have, that can cast, can potentially get Gateway, in which can potentially be cast or not, it all depends on how many Dice you get compared to them

Uh, you can't have the same spell twice anymore...

 

[KhainiteAssassin]

Masked. having lets say, 3 or 4 Tzeench Sorcs gives you that much more chance to get said spell, doesnt always mean you would be casting it.

besides, If your talking about not having the same spell on a single sorc, you have never been able to have the same spell on a single model.

 

[olderplayer]

Unless the army book or rule book says otherwise, the army can only have one copy of each spell known by any of its casters (p. 490) If one caster already knows a spell then, if it is rolled again, the caster or other caster must CHOOSE (not re-roll) another spell in the lore. This is important. You would not want or need to run three MoT casters in a WoC army , as there will typically not be enough power dice (with winds of magic) and not enough spells to go around (plus there is a risk that two of the Tzeentch lore spells with either be useless or not worth casting against many armies). A Lvl 2 and lvl 4 MoT Sorceror combo will get all six spells in the Lore of Tzeentch by default. However, I prefer to use the Lvl 2 for another lore and assume that the Lvl 4 will get at least 3 of the 4 or 5 useful spells I want with the #1 spell always being good (other than shorter range, flickering fire is better than fireball and almost an autocast with 97% probability with two power dice) and the ability to choose a spell if a duplicate is rolled. If the lvl 4 gets gateway with MoT, then the +5 casting bonus for being a lvl 4 and MoT makes gateway fairly easy to get off. For that reason, if I go with two MoT sorcerers, I would roll for the spells for the lvl 2 first and switch the gateway spell for the first spell of the lore leaving gateway for the lvl 4 to automatically be assured of getting. The exceptions are the signature spells in the new lore and certain common spells (like some of the vampire count spells, the high elf base spell and the dark elf power of darkness spell). Warriors Tzeentch lore is very potent against 8th edition with pandemonium being RIP and denying leadership of characters and triggering enemy miscasts on doubles, treason against non-immune horde armies is devastating, gateway, and flickering fire. Call to glory is now much better as well because casting a RIP spell does not prevent the caster from casting other spells anymore in 8th edition. Putting an exalted hero suddenly into a warrior unit at the beginning of combat is a nasty trick. Baleful is the only spell in the lore that is so-so unless facing low leadership units away from generals and BSBs.

 

[Whizzwang]

NO, you do not get any form of save from anywhere against "removed from game"

 

[Creon]

I think he's really against the 13th Spell which is "roll over the number of figures in the unit and it vanishes, replaced by a unit of Clan Rats"

 

[Crimzzen]

Uh, you can't have the same spell twice anymore...

You can if you use something like the tzeentch gift - Master of Sorcery. You just can't roll the same spell twice.

Also, how is he getting the dreaded 13th off? Power Scroll?

 

[Creon]

You may also be able to have the Dreaded 13th spell more than once, I think. It's a "default spell", and might be able to be legal for all grey seers in an army to have.

 

[Farseer_Iowan]

I am sure Grey Seerer thanqul (yes misspelled) gets the 13th spell as a default

 

[Whizzwang]

A signature spell in army books is defined as any spell you can take by swapping a spell you roll.

So yes, multiple grey seers can substitute to the 13th spell to get more copies.

 

[Creon]

Yep, that's what I thought.

 

[Khorne Aggression]

What a bull crap spell. I lost 5 games in a row because he just kept absorbing my general's unit or removing whatever unit had my Sorcerer. So stupid you have absolutely no defense against it AND it's a signature spell. Dispelling it will almost never work because it's rare that you get 6 dispel dice. Too bad IG only has a cast of 15, so easy to dispel against. Yeah you can take a dispel scroll but that's only good once. After that it's game over.

 

[Whizzwang]

Overly exxaggerated moan

where to start.

You get the higher number of the dice for your dispel, so if you're getting 1, 2 or 3 dispel dice, your opponent is getting sod all power dice. (6 max) This makes casting the 13th Spell rather hard.

5 games in a row, every time he nuked your big unit? .... maybe learn to adapt.

Learn to use Infernal Puppet. (I'm assuming you play chaos warriros as your name is KhorneThingy and you refernce a sorcerer) This single magic item is a game winner with the new miscast table. Average roll on 2D6 is 7. if you can mod that by 3 BAM!!! no more grey seer.

Not to mention the spell needs a 25+ to cast.... 25!!!!
so that's a 21 including caster level. To reliable roll that he's looking at 5 dice MINIMUM. That's a 20% chance of miscast right there.
Not to mention the average power dice pool is 7 so unless he's chugging down the warpstone risking his caster's life in the process it's hard to get the spell off. If he tries it on fewer dice throw the black tongue at him.
If he's dumping all his dice to it he's not casting plague, warp lightning, death frenzy or wither with any other wizards.

and he's removing your unit in 5 games? repeatedly. 4D6 models turned into rats is what? 14 on average. This probably means your general's bodyguard unit is too small.

How about 3rd eye of Tzeentch? No rule says you can't 13th spell a unit of Skaven.

Avoiding it is actually rather easy.

 

[Khorne Aggression]

Is it possible to take the Dreaded 13 using the Third Eye of Tzeentch? My argument was that it doesn't actually summon anything, it converts them which is different.

 

[Whizzwang]

Is it possible to take the Dreaded 13 using the Third Eye of Tzeentch?

Yes

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[Khorothis]

If I were you I'd hop over to the Army List section, post your army list and ask for suggestions. Seriously, even if you take Halberds with Khornate Warriors (which you should if you play a Khornate army), you hit earlier than the rats, much more and much stronger. You should be butchering everything you come across. You're doing something very wrong but maybe if you post your army list in the proper section then you'll get the advice you need.