[kelvingreen]

An independent character is not a scoring unit, but what about an IC with a retinue? Does that then count as a normal unit for scoring purposes?

I'd guess it does, but I can't find supporting evidence in the BRB.

 

[LongBeard]

The unit scores but without the IC's pts value added on.
Haven't got the BGB to hand but I'm 99% sure.....

 

[experiment 626]

An independent character is not a scoring unit, but what about an IC with a retinue? Does that then count as a normal unit for scoring purposes?

I'd guess it does, but I can't find supporting evidence in the BRB.

the retinue itself will count as a scoring unit. this is why you always want to make the retinue itself even-numbered. (ie: take either 6/8/10 man bodyguard!)
the IC's wounds however will be added to that of the squad for general purposes though - such as determining if the entire squad is above/below 50% starting strength...

confusing i know, but that's the way we figured it out in the astronomi-con forums! (techpriests are good friends to have)

cheers!

 

[kelvingreen]

Wow. That's... complicated, but I think I get it. Is there an official ruling for this anywhere?

Thanks all.

 

[don_mondo]

An independent character is not a scoring unit, but what about an IC with a retinue? Does that then count as a normal unit for scoring purposes?

I'd guess it does, but I can't find supporting evidence in the BRB.

the retinue itself will count as a scoring unit. this is why you always want to make the retinue itself even-numbered. (ie: take either 6/8/10 man bodyguard!)
the IC's wounds however will be added to that of the squad for general purposes though - such as determining if the entire squad is above/below 50% starting strength...

confusing i know, but that's the way we figured it out in the astronomi-con forums! (techpriests are good friends to have)

cheers!

Ummm, no, ICs are always figured separately for VPs, etc. And if they are already being figured separately, how can you count them again as part of the unit's wounds? You don't get to count the same model twice.

 

[experiment 626]

An independent character is not a scoring unit, but what about an IC with a retinue? Does that then count as a normal unit for scoring purposes?

I'd guess it does, but I can't find supporting evidence in the BRB.

the retinue itself will count as a scoring unit. this is why you always want to make the retinue itself even-numbered. (ie: take either 6/8/10 man bodyguard!)
the IC's wounds however will be added to that of the squad for general purposes though - such as determining if the entire squad is above/below 50% starting strength...

confusing i know, but that's the way we figured it out in the astronomi-con forums! (techpriests are good friends to have)

cheers!

Ummm, no, ICs are always figured separately for VPs, etc. And if they are already being figured separately, how can you count them again as part of the unit's wounds? You don't get to count the same model twice.

IC's will count as part of their retinue/unit for shooting purposes and determining which unit/s win an assault.
when you have multi-wound models within a unit, you count actual wounds, not models for determining things like losing 25%+ and regrouping...

it's only when determining who may strike who in an assault and who counts as a scoring unit that IC's are treated differently...

at least, this is what we've figured within the astro allumni. it's simply just another one of those horrible grey areas really!

cheers!

 

[royemunson]

It says it at the end of the missions section of the rulebook the IC does not score but if the retinue is still over half it scores.

 

[kelvingreen]

Ah yes. It's under "Units With Distinct Elements", although I would have thought "Independent Characters and Retinues" may have been a more sensible heading when talking about, um, Independent Characters and retinues... :wink:

Thanks, royemunson!

All that said, that section only really talks about victory points, and not the retinue's status as a scoring unit. I'd be inclined to count it as the same thing in this case though.


Edit: On a related note, do you get ½ victory points for (for example) reducing a unit to 50% and then full victory points for destroying it completely? ie, you reduce a 200pt unit to 50%, so you get 100vps; when you destroy the unit, do you then get 200vps (so 300 in total), or a second lot of 100vps?

 

[Cadian81st]

There's a large table someplace in the BBB, takes up a good 3/4 of a page, and it's on the right hand side of the hardback if memory serves, that details all of the full, 50%, and 0 crap that's too complicated to commit to memory.

 

[experiment 626]

Edit: On a related note, do you get ½ victory points for (for example) reducing a unit to 50% and then full victory points for destroying it completely? ie, you reduce a 200pt unit to 50%, so you get 100vps; when you destroy the unit, do you then get 200vps (so 300 in total), or a second lot of 100vps?

no. you only get the 200pts for compleatly wiping out the enemy unit as that is it's total pts cost.

also keep in mind that you must take units below 50% of their starting unit strength to get the half VP's! (this is why you should always aim for even-numbered squads as they're much more efficent than odd-numbered squads which will give up VP's easier!)

for example;
- a 6 man tactical squad must lose 4 marines in order to give up half it's total pts in VP's and also lose it's scoring unit status
- a 7 man tactical squad also must lose 4 marines, but it will give up more pts!

cheers!

 

[kelvingreen]

no. you only get the 200pts for compleatly wiping out the enemy unit as that is it's total pts cost.

That's what I thought, too. The wording is ambiguous, but I thought getting 300pts total for a 200pt unit seemed unfair. Cheers for clearing that up.

Cadian81st, yeah I know the table you're talking about, but it's full of that ambiguous wording that I wanted to clear up. The table was the problem, not the solution! :wink:

 

[mattjgilbert]

IC's will count as part of their retinue/unit for shooting purposes and determining which unit/s win an assault.
when you have multi-wound models within a unit, you count actual wounds, not models for determining things like losing 25%+ and regrouping...

Er... where does it say that? You use MODELS not wounds for taking a morale check for 25% casualties:
1. A casualty means a model has been removed, not that a wound has been taken. The Pinning rules get a lot more powerful with your view of things.
2. The rule says "unit strength in models"

Wounds might be counted for VPs but that is something entirely different and is not an in-game mechanic but a method f calculating victory AFTER the game.

 

[The Wraithlord]

It boils down to this: an IC is not a scoring unit while the retinue is. If the retinue is above 50% strength it is a scoring unit regardless of the IC it is with. If the retinue is under that it is no longer a scoring unit. And the strength is determined my model count, not wound count.

 

[colonel vortigern]

IG command squad for victory points

OK - I have a command squad with a heroic senior officer and four guardsmen in his personal staff (they come free with him). At the end of the game, he is fine but his bodyguard are all dead. Does my opponent get VPs for half the value of the officer? After all, he's alive, it's only the bullet-catchers who bought it. I, naturally enough, say no...

Ideas?

Vorty

 

[CATzeentch]

well it is a free squad, but at the same time it a squad that technically came drom the points value of your hero. Its a tricky one but I have to say no.

 

[dakari-mane]

OK - I have a command squad with a heroic senior officer and four guardsmen in his personal staff (they come free with him). At the end of the game, he is fine but his bodyguard are all dead. Does my opponent get VPs for half the value of the officer? After all, he's alive, it's only the bullet-catchers who bought it. I, naturally enough, say no...

Ideas?

Vorty

The officer is worth his base cost + the cost of his equipment purchased from the armoury.
The squad is worth the cost of its upgrades, guns, special equipment, skills & any attached advisers.
From this point its easy to calculate what is worth what VP.