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Discussion Starter #1
So i was playing a game with a buddy and some poor fire dragons got their ride shot out from underneath them. Needless to say, those poor soon to be dead Eldar got assaulted by several squads of space marines. I was all ready to write of those guys and just counter attack with a pie plate or banshee charge into the group of clustered marines when a question arose. Here it is:

After a sad attempt at fighting for their lives 3 fire dragons got killed and I removed the three that were next to some marine bad ass IC (he hadn't attacked yet because he was wielding a power fist.). When it came time for him to attack I pointed out that since he was an IC he (per the rule book) had to be touching a model to attack it. He wasn't therefore his attacks were void. An onlooker stated that since he was touching a model when combat began he should get his attacks. I countered that the whole point of initiative was that some things happened before others and that as an IC he technichally fought alone in close combat and that when he went to attack on his initiative of one there were no legal attacks for him. After much debate and rule interpriting most of the "guys" agreed with me. (moot point the FDs still died, but we needed to know the rule.

So did we get it right?
 

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Technicly your in the right, its just one of those retarded completely abuseable rules in this game (much like having one guy out of cover so your enemy basicly get 1 special weapon shot and nothing else, while his entire squad can shoot out) its Cheesy and i personaly wouldnt care if my opponant did that to me (as in atatcked with an IC after i had removed any modles close to him)

your not in the wrong, but thats one of the many rules that really doesnt make much scence :/
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I agree with you on principle, but we were practicing for 'Ard Boyz so we needed to know the "rule" not the common sense rule.
 

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Shortseer: Look at P35 of the BRB. All models engaged at the beginning of combat can attack. So his IC that you removed casualties from around could still make his full attacks against the unit I'm afraid.

Flame80010: It's not actually a "cheesy rule" at all, quite the opposite in fact. It was put in to stop "tactical casualty removal", where a player would specially take away models to stop a different unit from attacking. Otherwise, you could be charged by an I5 and an I4 unit, take all casualties away to stop the I4 unit from attacking, and have them sit round twiddling their thumbs being useless - whole units doing it. Or specifically taking away models so a powerfist sergeant couldn't strike back.

In fluff terms, the fight is meant to be a swirling melee, so having all the models around a particular person drop dead, so he can't actually do anything is pretty ridiculous. He would have had some effect on the combat, and that's why he gets to add his attacks.

Hope that helps clear it up :)
 

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In 4th Edition you judged attacks in initiative order, but that lead to massive tactical dying of figures. So in 5th edition they now judge at the very start of the attack if you can fight or not, to stop this.

So your friend was right his IC was able to hit you, even though you removed the models that were in base to base with him before his initiative.
 

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Max is right, so was the onlooker. This was a rule in 4th edition and was changed (thank goodness).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hmmm good to know. That's not the way the rules sounded to me, but then again. We may not have seen the stuff on page 35.

Thanks for the help guys.
 

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Hmmm good to know. That's not the way the rules sounded to me, but then again. We may not have seen the stuff on page 35.

Thanks for the help guys.
Yeah, if you just read the "IC in assault" rules on P49 of the BRB, it can be a little confusing, as it does mention "this means they have to be in base to base contact to attack". What it should say really is "this means you have to be in base to base contact to be engaged" for clarity. Still, that part is just trying to clarify how the IC has to attack as a unit on his own, rather than making an actual rule about it.

Don't worry too much, it's the sort of thing that comes up all the time :)
 

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Ah, we've been playing that wrong then... my entire local gaming group! :laugh:

We always went with "Attacks happen in Initiative order" and if you don't have anything to attack by the time your turn comes round, then you don't attack at all (ICs, not squads, obviously the entire squad gets to attack if engaged at the start of the combat).
 

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In 4th Ed it was a great rule for those who played fast CC armies with strong fast characters (DE are a great e.g.) mix this with consolidation into CC and it became very broken indeed with certain armies so it was removed for 5th ED :(
 

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Ah, we've been playing that wrong then... my entire local gaming group! :laugh:

We always went with "Attacks happen in Initiative order" and if you don't have anything to attack by the time your turn comes round, then you don't attack at all (ICs, not squads, obviously the entire squad gets to attack if engaged at the start of the combat).
Between 4th and 5th edition, our group of gamers confuse ourselves every time we play. I hope 6th edition keeps the same rules, by then we should have it down. I completely understand what you are saying !
 
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