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Discussion Starter #1
OK so Im close to completing my XVII IG and plan on taking on my brothers Chaos SM led by the dispicable ABADDON.

What is the best tactic and with all the might the have to offer what can I realistically use to match Chaos?

Ive been reading their codex and it seems to me that Chaos sm will beat my IG pound for pound. Whats the verdict?
 

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Well...honestly, Chaos DOES beat IG pound for pound. Doesn't mean you can't make em pay!

You need Power Armor killers: Plasma (pray they don't overheat), template artillery, tanks, heavy bolters, or a metric fuckton of flashlights.

Either go for the massed numbers and rely on flashlights to eventually do the job (roll a handload of dice, expect a kill or two tops every time). Or carry a lot of heavy weapon squads.

Beware of the Defiler and the dinner plate he drops on you. Packing your guys in tight means extra kills for him.

He's going to bring daemons. Hose them down at range.

Speaking of range, he's likely going to be death on wheels in CC, so be prepared to stay as far from him as possible, shoot at max range and don't be afraid of backing up and keeping him away; shoot and scoot (or scoot and shoot as the movement phase is before shooting ;) )

Don't despair, do your duty for the Emperor and die with honor!
The Emperor Protects.

(Ironically, I have the Black Legion Avatar up now)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
SORRY FOR THE DELAY IN TYPING UP ARMY LIST, JUST DONE IT THEN WHEN I SUBMITTED IT I HAD TO LOG IN AGAIN FOR SOME REASON---- SO IT GOT BLANKED
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Heres my list, it is the complete mass which I have currently assembled to all me a wider selection when picking a force for battle.

HQ

HEROIC SENIOR OFFICER - MACHARIAN CROSS/ MEDALLION CRIMSON
STANDARD BEARER - REGIMENTAL STANDARD
MEDIC
MASTER VOX
MELTAGUN
S. PSYKER
COMMISSAR

HQ SUPPORT SQUADS

SPEACIL WEAPONS SQUAD- 3X SNIPERS
HEAVY WEAPONS SQUAD- 3X MORTARS
SENTINEL SQUADRON- 3X SENTINELS (ARMAGEDDON/CADIAN/MARS)

ELITES

HARDENED VETERANS- VET SERG. WITH PLASMA PISTOL &POWER SWORD HONORIFICA IMPERIALIS, MACHARIAN CROSS, TRADEMARK ITEM. 1X PLASMAGUN, 1X MELTAGUN, 1X SHOTGUN WITH VOX, 1X LASPISTOL WITH POWER WEAPON OR ANOTHER MELTAGUN.

STORM TROOPERS- VET SERG. 7X STORM TROOPERS, 1X MELTAGUN, 1X PLASMA GUN, 4X MELTABOMBS (?), OPTIONAL- 1X FLAMER, 1X GRENADE L.

TROOP CHOICE

SHOCK TROOP PLATOONS

2X PLATOONS WITH 2X 1O SHOCK TROOPS IN EACH PLATOON

1ST PLATOON HQ- JUNIOR OFFICER PLSMA PISTOL WITH POWER SWORD, MEDIC, VOX, 1X GRENADE L, 1X FLAMER, S. PSYKER, COMMISSAR.

1ST SQUAD- V. SERG WITH LAS PISTOL AND CHAINSWORD, HEAVY BOLTER TEAM, 1X MELTAGUN, 6X GUARDSMEN.

2ND SQUAD- '' '', AUTOCANNON, ''

2ND PLATOON HQ- '' WITH LAS PISTOL AND POWER FIST, ''

3RD SQUAD- '' '', ROCKET L,''

4TH SQUAD- '' '', LASCANNON,''

**ALL TROOPS ARE GIVEN FRAG & KRAK**

FAST ATTACK

SENTINEL SQUADRON 2X SENTINELS (ARMAGEDDON/CADIAN)

HEAVY SUPPORT

1. LEMAN RUSS BATTLE TANK- FRONT LASCANNON, SIDE HEAVY BOLTERS, PINTOL MOUNTED HEAVY STUBBER, SMOKE L, DOZER BLADE, IMPROVED COMS.

2. LEMAN RUSS BATTLE TANK- FRONT HEAVY BOLTER, SIDE HEAVY FLAMER

3. LEMAN RUSS DEMOLISHER- FRONT LASCANNON, SIDE MULTIMELTAS, IMPROVED COMMS

4. BASILISK- ARMOURED COMPARTMENT, IMPROVED COMS

REGIMENTAL DOCTRINES

RESTRICTED TROOPS
ALTERNATIVE OPTION
1.STORM TROOPER SQUADS -SANCTIONED PSYKERS
2.HEAVY WEAPON SQUADS
3.SPECIAL WEAPON SQUAD

SKILLS AND DRILLS

1.DIE-HARDS -IRON DISCIPLINE
2.HARDENED FIGHTERS
 

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seems sound to me. my fav tactic with an army like IG is lots of men and lots of really big guns. you need the guns to take down the power armour and numbers to hold off an assault. i agree with the previous points, plasma guns, large blast template weapons, high strength weapons and some high toughness units and armour.

thats my opinion, but I am open for criticism
 

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I agree with OXC in general.

In my experience it is important to put up enough shots that the muzzle flare can be seen from orbit and concentrate your fire. I regularly play against a Death Guard army (Damn you Shakrut!! :D ) and stopping the advance can be tough.

Only comment I would make is that if you plan to use mortars, I would field more than 3. You need to saturate an area with mortar fire for real effect, the results can be entertaining, and you can force oh so many pinning checks (providing they aren't fearless, of course).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
So more squards in my platoon (ive still got 20 shock troops to add to my platoons- which will make 30 guardsmen in each platoon). Im planing on building an armoured fist squad, and adding another sentinel to fast attack.

So you say I should get two more mortar squads as well?
 

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That depends on what you favour. I am biased because I think mortars are great and they really fit with the background for one of my regiments. If your oppent fields a lot of fearless troops then it is probably not worth it. If however he doesn't then you can use mortars to control his army (to a degree).

What I tend to do if I come up against power armoured armies that can be pinned (or have elements that can) is prioritse the m as threats and then mortar them until they are pinned and cannot act next turn, then move down then list. Sometmes it works sometimes it doesn't. I managed to keep a Havoc unit pinned down for 4 turns out of 6 in one game, but equally I have had games where I failed to pin anything.

Mortars are at there best vs. hordes, against MEQ's they can be a bit hit and miss.
 

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you need to strip your list down so you have more points for good stuff.

power fists, plasma pistols, frag and krak, advisors sniper squads and all medals (except fot the honourifica) are all a waste of points imo. include as many plasma guns as you can, theyll cut through marine and terme armour without saves. get rid of the stormies and replace them with hardened vets - theyre cheaper and still have bs 4.

this list seems very low on anti armour. i would make my heavy weapons into lascannons or autocannons. also focus weapons - a flamer and a grenade launcher is not as effective as two flamers.

id also get rid of the sentinels and replace them with roughriders for counterattack. if any chaos marines reach your lines then youre in real trouble.

you can only have 3 heavy choices and 5 doctrine points.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I like the advice but I have to ask, is the army list advice (CCCP) based on fighting black legion specifically?

I ask this for two reasons, I've already spent a lot of money building this army list, and this list was compiled with the direct advice of two GW managers (from deferent stores)- no less!

They said the melta guns were the best choice as anti tanky heavy armour combat- and safer than plasma.

The sentinels were ADVISED as support for the infantry.

AND so were the snipers, mortars and tank choices.

Doctrines and medals were also taken from a managers army choice which configuration he swears by.

The only things I've added to the list configuration is the hardened vets cos i wanted to go ape on the conversions.

SO I should retire my two squadrons of sentinels, ditch my beloved STORMIES, sack all advices, strip all of my proud mens medals, buy entirely new sets of special weapons (plasma), and remodel nearly all of my diaramaesque heavy weapons teams?

I feel a crisis coming......
 

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I wouldn't panic Pilgrim. It all comes down to personal preference, personal experience and regimental background. cccp_one's comments will derive from his experience and preferred style of play, as will mine and as will the GW managers you spoke to.

Players will always recommend the troops that work for them, for example I will rave about mortars and ccp_one will nearly always recommend rough riders (well judging off the posts I have seen :wink: ).

IMO the best advice is try the list you have and work from there, if something doesn't seem to work ditch it but it doesn't mean you have to remodel the mini. For instance all my infantry squads have Vox caster in them as a result of an experiment, I didn't like the results but I like the vox model so them stay and I just make sure my opponent knows that they are for effect only.

It is your hobby and your army use it the way you enjoy that is the key. I have found that pretty much every entry in every codex has a use, in may be specific and only come up occasionally but they all do, so whatever you have modelled and painted will be of use at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I am planing to expand my regiment for the apocalypse,so I could get the relevent pieces you advice and just reconfigure my army to make these improvments.

SO looks like if I build lots of heavy support squads with lascannons and autocannons, and get about four plasma gunners (and couple flamers) I'LL be fine, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Cheers stormshroud, I appreciate your advice. As I appreciate cccp_one advice.

Ill return to the battle field and learn my own preferances testing these ideas that have been discussed.

So the upshot regarding Chaos is heavy weapons like lascannons and plenty of (cool) plasma. ILL consider adding more shock troops for numbers.

My bro has Dark Elder, what does thou say about beating these then?
 

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Ok, I was speaking to a GW employee today and asked exactly the same question. So here's the step by step guide he gave me. It was mainly about deploying, but

1. deploy the russes in the middle and the basilisk and demolisher on the flanks.

2. asign one heavy weapon to every squad and give any leftovers to the command squad. deploy each squad in a long line with heavy weapons near the front

3. Asign one sentinel squad to the command squad and get some rough riders in (i've heard good things about them).


4. Wait for them to come to you and rip the dirty heretics apart with heavy weapons and if nessessary charge in rough riders/sentinels to stop them getting too close to the main body of your army. DON'T I repeat DON'T move your army unless you really, really have to! You won't be able to fire heavy weapons and you will be ripped apart up close.

5.Oh yeah, and choose alpha level missions, as they don't allow deep strike or infiltrate. I just played a game with these tactics (against chaos) only to have my nicely deployed line ripped apart in close combat by terminators and infiltrators :shok: But these tactics are a sure fire win as long as they don't get into combat with your main army. Anyway, good luck with your games and may the emperor be with you!
 

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Alright here are my views but i'm fairly new as well

HQ is fine, Not a fan of vox networks but thats a playstyle choice, as are the Psyker. Also don't normally go for the cross, lots of points for a higher save...he has enough surviability by his squad dying before him that if those go some minior save isn't going to help much imo.....i may be wrong though. Depends on how you use him, mine stays back, you may be more agressive.

Snipers are generally agreed to be a fairly poor choice except vs nids and some of the necron monstros creatures. Also ratlings cost less per sniper rifle and get better cover...take a doctren though. Not a fan, but they can work, and snipers are cool because there snipers.

The sentinels are not grouped logically, they count as a unit and must move together. So you have a flamer sent grouped with the long range autocannon sent. I operate them in one man teams that way they can seperate, target seperate, and when shot at a unit can kill a maximum of 1. I know you can only fit one slot here, i would add one to the fast attack slot, and make the remaning 2 of the same type or reduce to one. For the fast attack i would seperate the 2 into 2 fast attack choices. Use all your slots.

For elites, i don't agree with how you have set up the vets. the honorific may be wasted here, also your spending a lot of points on a single model that is not that great, he is ending up costing a lot and still has worse stats than a marine.(save wise and such)
Personally i would keep him cheep as there job is to infiltrate(or drop), unload death and be a pain...once in close combat there dead, a better save and a few wounds are not worth it imo. Also your mixing weapons, you have a melta a plasma and a shot gun? I would put 3 of the same in the squad. 3 plasma is shooty death for marines, Melta's is almost a garanteed tank kill if in range. Don't mind power weapons as there cheep and at 5 points if you kill something your units done good. But i would not expect them to charge in and come out on top..


Storm troopers at least have a better save, if your heart is set on a 3 wound model w/ power sword, put it here. Not the best choice but if for flavor go for it. Bombs are fine, if you have melta bombs maybe go with plasma? unsure on that advice.



Not sold on the plasma pistol for the junior officer he can die shooting it, he will only shot it once(short range, after that he will probably be assaulted or assault. I may chang ethe melta to a plasma as this works better with the HB. the melta is anti tank, the bolter anti infantry. the plasma is anti marine.

For the second HQ..who has the powerfist, the officer? if so i'd down grade to a PW, but that just me.
Also unsure of grenades for all.

Fast attack i would split the sents into 2 seperate choices.

For the tanks i would be tempted to drop the lass cannon and get a bolter, so you have all bolters...
On the flamer one i may go bolter but i have never actually seen that used.

For the demolisher the multi melta may not be best, the demolisher is awsome at short range, when it is out of range it's useless, by giving plasma is has at least something to shoot at things farther away.

you also have 4 heavy suppport slots, believe you only get 3. Also the basalisk should have indirect fire. it should then be hidden behind cover and blow things up, it should not really get shot at till late game when things come around the cover it is hiding behind or something deep strikes to kill it. Thus the armoured compartment may not be needed.

Hope this helps but rember i'm new and it apears i play much much diffrently than you. I tend to shoot where your force seems to be more for CC.

I also notice a lack of las cannons, can SM field any 14 armour? or will the missle launcher beed good enough?

For advice, the post above is decent. Rough riders are great. but i just found out they are very specific. they are counter assault.

the best advice for guard i have heard was.

As a shooty force you start off winning the game, you kill more of them in shooting for the first turns and everything is your way at the start of the battle(everything far way,units won't be in close combat till turn 2). After that you have 6 turns to not lose the game.

Also guard can be hard to play as they are not as forgiving as space marines. (oh no my shooty squad got assaulted...whew they still kick but in assault)
Also deployment matter a lot for the guard. other armies move forward to get into CC....guard typically have a large portion of the forces remain still so where there set up is where they stay.

I look forward to your battle report.

And yes model vs model marines win...thats why you bring twice as many.
 

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I made a long post a while back talking about tactics for shooting armies against assaulting armies. You can find it here: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3611. Hopefully some of this will help.

Most of the advice so far has related to the choice of which units and equipment to take, and that's fine. I agree with quite a lot of what has gone before, particularly the point that plasma guns and lascannons are really your weapons of choice against chaos.

A chaos army can be played in many different ways but in general you are talking about an army that will be trying to assault you, backed up with some pretty respectable shooting. Pretty much any single model in his army, right down to basic chaos space marines, can take on a squad of your guys and have a good chance of winning. If any of his serious combat units make it to your lines you can expect to be taking off whole units at a time without having even rolled an attack.

You were told that it's safer to fire a melta gun than a plasma gun. I disagree with this completely. It's true that you can't actually kill your own guys by having them fire melta guns, but you need to be within 12" of your target to fire. If you are within 12" then you are in charge range, and if you are in charge range then you are dead. Since lots of his stuff can charge more than 12" and he may even have extra tricks like Lash available to him (that moves your troops) it is quite normal for an infantryman with a melta gun to get charged without ever firing. Plasma guns have a 24" range and get 2 shots within 12" so you can at least cause some damage as you die.

Kill vehicles with lascannons, autocannons and maybe some HK missiles and do it from 48" away. Maybe take something like a suicide squad with plasma/melta weapons that deep strikes. Otherwise the further you are from the enemy the better it is for you.

As has been mentioned already you are spending loads of points on officers and all kinds of bells and whistles for them to carry around. It may work to have a counter-charge unit of some kind that can kill an enemy unit after it arrives, and this is one potential use for your HQ. Even still remember that if this unit gets charged by any of his better CC units then it is so dead that it's barely worth rolling the dice. Personally I would spend the points on guns and try to kill him before he gets near you.
 

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They said the melta guns were the best choice as anti tanky heavy armour combat- and safer than plasma.
Safer yes, for many armies melta may be better, but one thing to keep in mind is your guys are expendable. you can lose 20 guys and consider it a good turn. The diffrence between plasma and melta power wise is not all that great. IF your within 12" and shooting a tank the melta is better. Farther and facing marines, plasma is better. It is all in how you use them. If you deep strike your troops next to tank and this is your main anti tank, then the melta is fantastic. If not tasked to anti tank i'd go for the plasma, while the melta can kill troops, it's short range and single shot may not be as good as 2 plasma shots.
The sentinels were ADVISED as support for the infantry.
People seem to hate sentinells personally i love them. There cheap and pack heavy weapons. Many people do not like them because they almost never survive a battle. but at 35 points + weapons who cares, it kills anything and it's made it's points back, it survives a squad shooting at it and it has done well. The auto cannons sents are awsome, they have a crazy range and are a threat to just about anything, if the foe takes them out he's not shooting your troops, dosn't and he has more auto cannons shots pouring into him next turn. Multii laz is also very good, 3 shots that again affect most units and even some transports....and my favorite the flamer. Never mind vs non marines it could charge in some week units and tie them up and they would be un able to kill it.

AND so were the snipers, mortars and tank choices.
Snipers have limited use vs marines as marines have a high leader ship and do not get pinned often, vs other foes they can be more usefull. Mortars are good, but generally not tailored to anti marine as again they are not often pinned... the tanks are great, just not the weapon combo's i would chose.. But my army is diffrent i have lots of lass cannons so i don't need one on my tank. if your short on anti tank then it's a good way to add another anti tank shot.

Doctrines and medals were also taken from a managers army choice which configuration he swears by.
To be honest i have never used the medels, maybe his comand squad gets shot at a lot...i hide mine. For doctrens most of them are great. i would try to get close order drill though.

The only things I've added to the list configuration is the hardened vets cos i wanted to go ape on the conversions.
Vets are awsome, BS 4, 3 special weapons can drop or infiltrate decent leadership.....yes please.

SO I should retire my two squadrons of sentinels, ditch my beloved STORMIES, sack all advices, strip all of my proud mens medals, buy entirely new sets of special weapons (plasma), and remodel nearly all of my diaramaesque heavy weapons teams?
NO! if you want the sents they work, though as mentioned they operate better alone than in squads. I would keep the storm troopers but maybe re kit them out. take all advice with lots of salt, i play very diffrent than you and others diffrent than me. So when someone says "plasma's better" it is because in his list he has other ways to deal with tough tanks and needs the plasma to take out troops or maybe transports. Where in yours your melta is more tasked to tank hunting and should probibly stay.
I feel a crisis coming......[/quote]

the codex is complex, and there are a million diffrent army lists and 5 million ways to play them. Take our advice but don't change your list.
Play another game, see where he beat you..
Did he have tanks that you just could not kill? then read our advice and consider some las cannons.
Did you kill all his tanks but then get masacered by his troops, maybe to much anti tank and you need some more plasma or heavy bolters.

Also look at how your using units. Did your melta armed troops ever get a chance to shoot? if so was it a tank? If not re evalute why you have that weapon there. Change the weapon or change how you use the squad.
The melta deep striking right next to a tank...that tank is dead.
A melta walking across the board and only shoting once at a marine scout is a waste.

IG need to use the right weapon in the right place.
Just as an heavy bolter shot is wasted vs an av 14 target a melta shot vs something a las gun could kill is also a waste.

So don't panic, your list is fine, not perfect and it has some weeknesses but they can be overcome.

I post my list and people rip it apart as well...

So your list needs tweeking and you will as you play, you'll find out maybe having some long range anti tank would be good, or maybe your melta's work great.

I enjoy a loss more as i spend the next week(we play once a week) going over the battle and what i did wrong or need to change.

I find writing a battle report helps. mainly because i need to think back to what every unit did. Did my heavy bolter squad do anything? did my sent actually kill anything. wow my deep striking melta took out his tank and survived the next turn to charge into combat and the powersword killed a havok.

after that is done you'll know what units worked, what ones failed to earnt here points and then you will evaluate why...(maybe charging those chaos space marines was not the best choice.

also you can use place holders in friendly games. so your tank has a las cannon, at the start of the game mention you want to see how 3 heavy bolters works out. try it and see before woring about a crisis. Other than ogrin and tech priests theres no really bad choices...and even those can be made to work.
 
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