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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #1
I just want to make sure I am reading this right
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=959939733&stc=1&d=1375638469

From what it reads the unit enters play via the Outflank rule, and then can choose to arrive anywhere on the table that is within 6' of Nightspear using the Deepstrike rule with no scatter. For the purpose of this question it doesn't matter who it is, but lets say we attach a friendly IC to the Ranger squad, which can enter play with them via the Outflank rule, once they enter play you then can choose to arrive wherever Nightspear is with no scatter via Deepstike.

In quick example you have a Farseer with a unit of Rangers, who then show up near Nightspear anywhere on the table.

Am I correct in assuming it works this way?

As a aside it also looks like you can place Nightspear in B2B with an enemy unit during the Infiltrate deployment phase, am I correct in assuming they would automatically be locking in close combat with any affected unit?
 

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Addressing your aside note at the end I don't believe that to be valid. It's simply there to disregard the regular restrictions to placing infiltrators (12 out of sight, 18 within if I recall). I also don't believe you can end your movement within 1' of an enemies base.
 

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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #3
Addressing your aside note at the end I don't believe that to be valid. It's simply there to disregard the regular restrictions to placing infiltrators (12 out of sight, 18 within if I recall). I also don't believe you can end your movement within 1' of an enemies base.
I agree too, only thing that caught me was that deployment is not movement so that rule wouldn't apply.
 

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As for the main question, that's a no. The rule does not state any Ranger or Pathfinder unit may deploy via this manner, it says "...any friendly Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders..." may deploy in this manner. It is strictly limited to just Rangers and Pathfinders; in the same fashion, a Space Marine Captain in Power Armor can not join a unit of Terminators and then deploy via Deep Strike.
 

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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #5
As for the main question, that's a no. The rule does not state any Ranger or Pathfinder unit may deploy via this manner, it says "...any friendly Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders..." may deploy in this manner. It is strictly limited to just Rangers and Pathfinders; in the same fashion, a Space Marine Captain in Power Armor can not join a unit of Terminators and then deploy via Deep Strike.
In this situation there are two things I can think off off the top of my head.

1) They are deploying and following the rules for Outflank, the only thing that changes is that once they arrive they can enter the board in this manner. As such nothing would prevent an attached IC from join a unit to outflank. In your example its a case of different wargear, which in my example is not the case.

2) When a IC joins a unit he becomes a part of that unit for all intents and purposes (page 39), so in this case when the rules call for a friendly unit of Rangers or Pathfinders that is exactly what it is getting.
 

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I think you are right on the main point. The IC is attached to the Rangers and part of their unit. But that IC must be able to Outflank for the rule to work. Because if the Rangers arrive from your board edge(not Outflanking) they cannot arrive next to Illic.

As for how he Infiltrates, he must be 1" away. There is a Dark Eldar character that can arrive similarly but it clearly says he must be 1" away. I fully expect Illic to get an FAQ to clarify this. But I'm pretty sure you cannot move(be placed) in base contact with an enemy except when charging.
 

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The ability to Outflank only requires a single model to have the special rule in the unit, so the attached IC would be fine. The only time this is a problem is if it is an IC without Infiltrate joining a unit with Infiltrate.

The "regardless of proximity" is very obviously removing the distance to enemy units in/out of LOS that usually applies to Infiltrators. Only the very worst Rawtard extends that to setting up in B2B with an enemy unit.
 

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2) When a IC joins a unit he becomes a part of that unit for all intents and purposes (page 39), so in this case when the rules call for a friendly unit of Rangers or Pathfinders that is exactly what it is getting.
But the rules don't call for a friendly unit of Pathfinders or Rangers. It calls for "...any friendly Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders..." If it was unit, then the Character would be part of the unit, and thus allowed to do this. But the rules specifically state friendly Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders. So unless your IC is a Ranger or Alaitoc Pathfinder, as well as a friendly guy, he is not allowed to deploy in this manner.
 

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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I think you are right on the main point. The IC is attached to the Rangers and part of their unit. But that IC must be able to Outflank for the rule to work. Because if the Rangers arrive from your board edge(not Outflanking) they cannot arrive next to Illic.

As for how he Infiltrates, he must be 1" away. There is a Dark Eldar character that can arrive similarly but it clearly says he must be 1" away. I fully expect Illic to get an FAQ to clarify this. But I'm pretty sure you cannot move(be placed) in base contact with an enemy except when charging.
Excellent that is what I think as well, just looking to get other perspectives before I throw it in a guide.

But the rules don't call for a friendly unit of Pathfinders or Rangers. It calls for "...any friendly Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders..." If it was unit, then the Character would be part of the unit, and thus allowed to do this. But the rules specifically state friendly Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders. So unless your IC is a Ranger or Alaitoc Pathfinder, as well as a friendly guy, he is not allowed to deploy in this manner.
I didn't see your post before I replied

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying, by joining a unit of Rangers an IC is a Ranger for all intents and purposes. I'm not sure where the discrepancy is.
 

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I'm not sure I follow what you are saying, by joining a unit of Rangers an IC is a Ranger for all intents and purposes. I'm not sure where the discrepancy is.
He isn't labelled a Ranger. When a Farseer joins a unit of Rangers he becomes part of the unit, but the name of the model isn't changed to "Ranger", it's still "Farseer". His profile, with his special rules, is listed under "Farseer", regardless of whatever unit he joined. Since the special deployment specifies "friendly Rangers and Alaitoc Pathfinders" the Farseer is not eligible. He is not a "Ranger" nor an "Alaitoc Pathfinder", he's a "Farseer". He's in a unit of "Rangers" or "Alaitoc Pathfnders", and if the rules specified "friendly units of..." all would be well. But the rule calls for Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders, and he is neither - no matter what unit he joins.
 

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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #11
He isn't labelled a Ranger. When a Farseer joins a unit of Rangers he becomes part of the unit, but the name of the model isn't changed to "Ranger", it's still "Farseer". His profile, with his special rules, is listed under "Farseer", regardless of whatever unit he joined. Since the special deployment specifies "friendly Rangers and Alaitoc Pathfinders" the Farseer is not eligible. He is not a "Ranger" nor an "Alaitoc Pathfinder", he's a "Farseer". He's in a unit of "Rangers" or "Alaitoc Pathfnders", and if the rules specified "friendly units of..." all would be well. But the rule calls for Rangers or Alaitoc Pathfinders, and he is neither - no matter what unit he joins.
Hmm i get what your saying now however as per page 39 for all rules purposes he is a ranger once he joins that squad.
 

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I must agree with Salahaldin. Only models that are rangers or pathfinders can come in using this special rule.
It clearly states any friendly rangers or Alaitoc pathfinders. not units there of.
RAW would prevent you from doing this so am afraid you cant pop up a farseer or say Karandras right next to your foe as that would be a little broken me thinks.
 

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Hmm i get what your saying now however as per page 39 for all rules purposes he is a ranger once he joins that squad.
page 39 says nothing of the sort. He considered part of the unit for all purposes but he does not become the model type of the unit at all.

The bit that is ALWAYS overlooked when rolling out this gem is further down on the IC rule.

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different
special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule
itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not
conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent
Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

Now that says to me that the special ability of a unit of Rangers to Deep Strike next to Illic when outflanking will not confer onto any attached IC.

Yes the ability is not a Special Rule of a Ranger per se but it is a rule that only applies to Ranger models. For it to work the rule would have to include the standard phrase "and any attached independent Characters"
 

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Ouch. That quote is pretty cut and dry against Ranger + IC shenanigans. But it does make sense according to the fluff. Rangers and other Eldar don't really mix.
 

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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #15
page 39 says nothing of the sort. He considered part of the unit for all purposes but he does not become the model type of the unit at all.

The bit that is ALWAYS overlooked when rolling out this gem is further down on the IC rule.

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different
special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule
itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not
conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent
Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

Now that says to me that the special ability of a unit of Rangers to Deep Strike next to Illic when outflanking will not confer onto any attached IC.

Yes the ability is not a Special Rule of a Ranger per se but it is a rule that only applies to Ranger models. For it to work the rule would have to include the standard phrase "and any attached independent Characters"
Excellent Quote, the only reason I ignored that is that the Rule belongs to Nightspear and not the unit of Rangers. All the Rangers have is Outflank, which is shareable with a IC. Illic himself can allow them to show up within 6', since the IC itself is not joined to Illic I didn't think the above quote applied.
 

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As I said in my post, the Illiac thing is not a special rule for Rangers but it is a Special rule that only applies to Rangers.

I don't see it as too much of an extrapolation to say that this rule also means things that apply to the members of a squad do not automatically apply to IC's as well.
 

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Autarch of Heresy
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Discussion Starter #17
As I said in my post, the Illiac thing is not a special rule for Rangers but it is a Special rule that only applies to Rangers.

I don't see it as too much of an extrapolation to say that this rule also means things that apply to the members of a squad do not automatically apply to IC's as well.
I suppose, I'm just surprised an IC doesn't go along for a ride when its joined to the squad. While not a untoward extrapolation I can't think of a precedent where it would apply, thankfully that sort of thing doesn't arise very much.
 

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Illiac's rule is pretty unique so I guess some rationaled conjecture is in order.
 
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