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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there dudes (and dudettes),

It's been a while since I last posted. I went all Tau'va and got lost, but with the new Astra Militarum codex I thought it best to once again snuggle up to some Imperial Guard ('cause that's still what they are despite that silly copywrited new name) players.

So a short re-introduction: I'm a very competitive tournament player, part of a serious gaming club and find myself around the 10th spot on the last several Dutch Grand Tournaments (8th with Guard, 8th with Guard and 12th with Tau (when I handed a club mate some points in a lost game.)) and winning lesser tournaments.
The current meta game in The Netherlands: CS/CSM ScreamerStars, Eldar/DE BeastStars, Necron WraithScythe, TauDar.

I used to play a MechGuard list with great fun and good results. This does somewhat limit me in looking at all the options in the new codex, so feel free to point out my clear and obvious misses.

What do I think is best in the new codex:
-Psykers (with divination powers); Oh my... did they really just hand us cheap IC psykers that can roll on the divination chart and pick "prescience" if nothing good comes up? YES, they did! No list of mine will go without two ML2 psykers. Why, you ask? Because against all those *swear loudly* 2++deathstar units you really need "misfortune" to stop the onslaught. Also the psyker is Ld9, which makes him very suited to hide, ahem, fight in an infantry blob.
-Orders; Oh my, they just gave us "ignore cover" as an order? In addition to "precision shots" for whole units? Yes, they did. With psykers able to use presience it's amazing to also be able to ignore cover or shoot presicion shots. Firing 8 twinlinked plasma precision shots into a deathstar may just take out that hated herald (with grimmoire), combined with misfortune and we might stand a chance against deathstars.

What do I dislike in the new codex:
-Vendetta pricing; Yes... it's more expensive... Yes, it's probably fair (although 150 would have been fine imho)... Yes, we still take three! 'Cause it's the only reliable AA and AT we got.
-Manticore pricing; Yes... it's more expensive... Yes, it's probably fair (although 160 was fine imho)... Yes, we still take two! 'Cause that d3 S10 pie plate will destroy any tank and will ID screamers, heralds, hounds and jetbikes if you go first.
-Chimera pricing; There was nothing wrong with the chimera... (Ok, 5 firepoints was a bit much.) They changed it just to sell that other ugly transport.
-The loss of ordnance batteries; I loved the medusa and sometimes used the colossus, but no more.

The new list:
HQ1.0- Company Command squad w/ 4 plasmaguns @ 120pts (optional: go in vendetta 1)
HQ1.1- Primaris Psyker (ML2), force axe @ 75pts (join blob squad 1)
HQ2.0- Company Command squad @ 60pts (sit behind manticore, HQ for "slay the warlord")
HQ2.1- Primaris Psyker (ML2), force axe @ 75pts (join blob squad 2)
TR1- Platoon Command Squad @ 55pts (go in vendetta 2)
TR2- Infantry Platoon w/ autocannon @ 60pts
TR3- Infantry Platoon w/ autocannon @ 60pts
TR4- Infantry Platoon w/ autocannon @ 60pts
TR5- Platoon Command Squad @ 55pts (go in vendetta 3)
TR6- Infantry Platoon w/ lascannon @ 70pts
TR7- Infantry Platoon w/ lascannon @ 70pts
TR8- Infantry Platoon w/ lascannon @ 70pts
FA1- Vendetta Gunship @ 170pts
FA2- Vendetta Gunship @ 170pts
FA3- Vendetta Gunship @ 170pts
HS1- Manticore Rocket Launcher @ 170pts
HS2- Manticore Rocket Launcher @ 170pts
FO1- Aegis Defense Line w/ comms relay @ 70pts
Grand Total: 81 models @ 1750pts

This list is a first idea coming from my chimera/vets MSU lists, but the back bone is still present with vendetta's manticores and the ADL with comms. (That re-roll is so very important to be sure the vendetta's come in on turn 2!) Two blob squad with psyker and order support behind an ADL should be able to deal some damage and will have to catch any fast moving deathstars. Psykers give offensive and defensive (DtW) psychic support and Ld9. Prescience and tank/monster hunter combo will boost IG lascannon efficiency. If I go first prescience will make sure that those manticores do serious damage. The plasma CCS rides a vendetta just to get them where they're needed. Putting them in the only chimera is asking for target priority. When they deploy they can use they're own build in orders to kill stuff. The flamers PCS's are for late battle claiming/contesting and mopping up.

My only concern is that I don't have any searchlights to mark for the manticores during night fighting... Something my riptides never care about.

What do you guys think?
 

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Couldn't you swap a Primaris for an inquisitor via Allies? Gives you access to Servo skulls to stop Scout move and infiltrates etc? Seems to be an auto include?

What would you drop for 1500 points? Troops or vehicles?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
@ BBM

An inquisitor with servo skulls will be included in the final 1750 build if he is a battle brother he wil become a ML1 psyker.

For 1500 i'd cut the plasma command and 1 infantry squad from both platoons, or 1 vendetta. (Depending on how many flyers you regularly face.
 

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An inquisitor with servo skulls will be included in the final 1750 build if he is a battle brother he wil become a ML1 psyker.
He sure is a Battle Brother, and would cost 64 points with the Psyker upgrade and 3x Servo Skulls.

Very solid looking list, how do you deal with Drop Pod (or T1 DS'ers whatever the method) armies? The sort of stuff where there's little or nothing for you to shoot at should you get first turn, and then BAM right up close. Really, just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Good question. (Just reminds me how no-brainer allround my Tau army with 3 ewo riptides is.)

The answer is that against those armies I will insulate the expensive units with the blob squads keeping melta outside 12" if possible, take some damage and strike back next turn.

I must admit I hadn't thought of those armies. With Tau being so dominant almost nobody brings an army that deploys from reserves around here.
 

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I disagree that the chimera was changed just to sell the Taurox. I think it was changed because GW wanted to go back to the older way of how shooting worked with it (though I think this is honestly better than that) and balance it more fairly considering it now looks like a rave party while shooting (lasers EVERYWHERE).
 

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The answer is that against those armies I will insulate the expensive units with the blob squads keeping melta outside 12" if possible, take some damage and strike back next turn.
Were I to use my BA against an army like this there would for sure be a pair of Fragiosos coming down T1, followed at the Reserve roll's leisure by RAS squads kitted with MGs and a Flamer squad with my HQ. Focus the 6 templates on one guard squad to break them (and with that many templates it may very well happen); likely the LC one so that any T1 retaliation you have has a lower Strength. I would be so close that you might hesitate to react with your Manticores, and your Vendettas would have to fly over me or come on board in Hover mode.

I would be very curious to face such a competitive build, it looks very challenging.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Very interesting discussion. Would love the practice!

What would happen if I got T1? What would you deploy?
(Bringing Coteaz would give the LC blob "i've been expecting you" and a good chance to go first most times.)
 

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If I was playing a Drop Pod army the most you'd see on the table would be sniper Scouts in Camo with an Inquisitor for Prescience, if that. If you took T1 it would be a total waste of your shooting phase :wink:

The 50% reserve thing doesn't count for things that have to start the game in Reserves, and with Drop Pods you'll end up with half your army (rounding up) on the table at the end of T1 so you won't automatically lose.
 

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Officer of the Fleet could slow your plans down with his minus 1 to your rolls order. Would make it hopefully easier I guess. And if you don't go against a DS heavy army you could use it for 2+ reserve rolls yourself.
 

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If I was playing a Drop Pod army the most you'd see on the table would be sniper Scouts in Camo with an Inquisitor for Prescience, if that. If you took T1 it would be a total waste of your shooting phase :wink:.
Bring Barrage Weapons. If you can kill five T4 4+ bodies and a single T3 5+ dude on turn one with your barrage, you win automatically.

EDIT: Ignore me, that doesn't work for Drop Pod lists.

As for the list, I'd definitely be tempted to drop some things to make room for a super-blob:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Power Armour, Mastery Level 1 (Divination), Force Sword, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades and Liber Heresius
Ministorum Priest
40 Guardsmen with 4 Power Axes and assorted special weapons

This blob is a fairly unstoppable combat unit. Re-rolls to Hit and Wound from Prescience/Hatred and War Hymns, enemy at -1 Toughness and a Psychotroke effect, Scout, and one-turn Counter-Attack, Fear, and Hatred.

If you're having problems with Deathstars, as it seems you are, it might be worth adding a second, really cheap Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with Psyocculum. This makes your Guardsmen BS10 against Screamerstar and Seer Council. Alternatively, if you're still running a Primaris Psyker in the unit, you could change Divination on the Inquisitor out for Hammerhand and get Strength 4 on your Guardsmen, Str5 on the Sergeants, although that's running dangerously close to gilding the lily.
 

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Officer of the Fleet could slow your plans down with his minus 1 to your rolls order. Would make it hopefully easier I guess. And if you don't go against a DS heavy army you could use it for 2+ reserve rolls yourself.
Valid tactic and one that would work nicely, it might be worth considering if you don't want to field the ADL w/comms relay.

There are still ways around that for a BA army. If I were to have the Scouts w/ =I= deployed, it would be so that I could deploy 3 Assault squads from Reserves using their JPs. Servo Skulls stack nicely with Descent of Angels, and since you may not be moving forward fast enough to make the skulls disappear, I may just get to re-roll my Reserves and have them not scatter.

I want to build your list here with my Guard and let my buddy play it just so I can face it with my BA now. Not to mention it's rekindled my thoughts on Drop Pod builds being somewhat competitive (which is always hard for me to gauge since I admittedly do not even play in-store let alone at tournaments).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So many interesting ideas!

@ BBM

I'm not sold on the OotF. He needs to be on the table this codex in order to make his Ld7 (or Ld9 from his senior officer?) test. The comms relay 3+ with re-roll is also slightly better (89% vs 83%) than the 2+. Also that ADL is just plain necessity to prevent T1 alpha strikes against my army. (Although Tau will just ignore is anyway.)

@ midnightsun

Ok, you caused me some brain aches... A blob as a CC unit... *argh* it still hurts! But you make a good argument. (Shame that splitfire only lets 1 gun target something else.) I'll look into that. I does seem like a deathstar of it's own, but cheaper I reckon.

@ ntaw

Let me know how it went! Don't forget to play a decent mission that involves at least some claiming and if possible secondary and tertiary objectives. A lot of people got so caught up in "kill the enemy" that they forget to "play the mission" and keep playing the opponent.
 

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@ midnightsun

Ok, you caused me some brain aches... A blob as a CC unit... *argh* it still hurts! But you make a good argument. (Shame that splitfire only lets 1 gun target something else.) I'll look into that. I does seem like a deathstar of it's own, but cheaper I reckon.
If you can find something with Slow and Purposeful, stick him in the blob and replace the Special Weapons with Heavy Weapons. You'll lose some combat competency because you can't Run (unless the Move Move Move order bypasses Slow and Purposeful), but you become a pretty reasonable shooting force.
 

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Don't forget to play a decent mission that involves at least some claiming and if possible secondary and tertiary objectives. A lot of people got so caught up in "kill the enemy" that they forget to "play the mission" and keep playing the opponent.
This Heretic always plays the mission. I have found often that I end up winning by paying more attention to what Troops are on the table and where over rushing in and killing the closest unit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This Heretic always plays the mission. I have found often that I end up winning by paying more attention to what Troops are on the table and where over rushing in and killing the closest unit.
Then you understand the game better than most! What's keeping you from testing yourself at tournaments? You seem to have a good understanding of the game, other armies/codexi and list building.

After some debate with club members, I'm curious what you guys think about the manticore/enginseer "issue". The rockets on the manticore are now all separate weapons and to prevent you from launching them all in T1 because of standing still (as with the sky ray) they have limited the manticore to firing only one rocket a turn. Now the enginseer gives a vehicle ("hello mr. manticore") PotMS and that in turn let's a vehicle fire an extra weapon each turn at a different target. So... T1, you cast the power and nuke your opponent with 2d3 S10AP4 templates on 2 different targets. (Now multiply this trick by two... alpha strike heaven/hell.)
 

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If that's legal I'm buying an enginseer and a manticore straight away. Maybe even multiple!

Also, I've noticed people have gone away from mech vets, obviously chims went up 15 points, but vets went down and so did some of their war gear options. Is there some other reason this is happening other then the 5 point difference and loss of 1 SW shooting (you do however get 6 Lasguns)?

I'm toying with 2x company commands and 2x vet squads with Foward sentries sitting behind an ADL for a "cheap" minimum force Org.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
If that's legal I'm buying an enginseer and a manticore straight away. Maybe even multiple!

Also, I've noticed people have gone away from mech vets, obviously chims went up 15 points, but vets went down and so did some of their war gear options. Is there some other reason this is happening other then the 5 point difference and loss of 1 SW shooting (you do however get 6 Lasguns)?

I'm toying with 2x company commands and 2x vet squads with Foward sentries sitting behind an ADL for a "cheap" minimum force Org.
My raw/waac buddies all agree that it is possible and will accept me using this on them. Most often if they accept it, the tournament organisers accept it. So building on that concept I revised my list:

Astra Militarum Main Detachment
HQ1.0- Company Command Squad @ 60pts
HQ1.1- Primaris Psyker (ML1), force axe @ 50pts (joins blob squad 1)
HQ1.2- Primaris Psyker (ML1), force axe @ 50pts (joins blob squad 2)
HQ1.3- Enginseer @ 40pts (joins blob squad 1)
HQ1.4- Enginseer @ 40pts (joins blob squad 2)
TR1- Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 flamers @ 50pts (go in vendetta 1)
TR2- Infantry Platoon w/ autocannon @ 60pts
TR3- Infantry Platoon w/ autocannon @ 60pts
TR4- Infantry Platoon w/ autocannon @ 60pts
TR5- Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 flamers @ 50pts (go in vendetta 2)
TR6- Infantry Platoon w/ lascannon @ 70pts
TR7- Infantry Platoon w/ lascannon @ 70pts
TR8- Infantry Platoon w/ lascannon @ 70pts
FA1- Vendetta Gunship @ 170pts
FA2- Vendetta Gunship @ 170pts
HS1- Manticore Rocket Launcher w/ heavy flamer @ 170pts
HS2- Manticore Rocket Launcher w/ heavy flamer @ 170pts
FO1- Aegis Defense Line w/ comms relay @ 70pts
Inquisitorial Detachment
HQ1- Inquisitor Coteaz @ 100pts (join blob squad 1)
HQ2- Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor w/ 3 servo skulls, psyker (ML1) @ 64pts (join blob squad 2)
EL1- 3 acolytes w/ inquisitorial razorback w/ searchlight @ 53pts
EL1- 3 acolytes w/ inquisitorial razorback w/ searchlight @ 53pts
Grand Total: 77models @ 1750pts

See if you can spot all the synergy going on in there! (I just love it... makes me smile...)

The reason people (in my meta) are no longer in love with MechVets is that you have to get close (inside 12") to use your SW's (plasma, melta, flamers) to most effect. You need to be outside the vehicles to use orders (which you need to be most effective) and that opens you up to fire power and assaults. Especially the latter is a big problem with so many CC oriented armies (daemons, csm, necron wraiths, beastpacks, tyranids) in top tier tournaments. You'll get one turn of firepower max... then you die. That's just too expensive. Therefore most people go with the big guns and insulate them with blob squads. One plasma CCS to provide fire support is acceptable, but at 180pts... that's a lot of points hanging back.

With the new (no Line of Sight required) rules a CCS can camp behind some terrain and boost blobs. 2 orders a turn @ 60pts is a bargain! Especially on Ld10 blobs with heavy weapons and "prescience" support.
 

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Dayum. Dat list. Wish UK GT had a 1750 limit (im assuming it hasn't changed at least).

Are the psycannon Razorbacks there to deal with Demon lists then? And are they seriously 40 points?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Dayum. Dat list. Wish UK GT had a 1750 limit (im assuming it hasn't changed at least).

Are the psycannon Razorbacks there to deal with Demon lists then? And are they seriously 40 points?
These are HB razorbacks. The Inquisition codex doesn't do psybolt ammunition. (Maybe they found out it's a bit cheap! ;) ) Yes they are that cheap, but you don't get the psychic pilot (ignore stunned/shaken) upgrade. Only reason these boys are in... searchlights! You need searchlights to ignore night fighting when firing the manticores. And the 12pts henchmen are scoring... so that's also very nice and dirt cheap.
 
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