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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This discussion began on another thread, and during one of my responses I realized it was too far detached from the actual thread that I decided to start a new on.

This is the quote from the other thread that made me want to start this thread:

This is a null point and irrelevant. The Emperor made the sons, all apparently with a particular frame of mind and operation for the job - for example, the legions espousing particular tactics, which lo and behold, Primarch's half the galaxy away, are able to perfect. Hence the emperor had particular ideas for the legions at the start. The Warhounds, as the 12th became known, were still agressive attackers, the XXth were (in all likelihood) the rumoured spec ops Ghost legion, the fists the defenders, the IW the siege breakers, etc, even before the Primarch arrived.
If Guilliman had landed on Nuceria, was given the nails, and then forced to be a gladiator, would he still be the disciplined and controlled Primarch he was? Absolutely not, in my opinion anyway.

If Angron had landed on Macragge and properly taught, he would probably still be very aggressive, but it is extremely likely that he would be much more controlled. His fight with Russ would also have likely never happened because he would have been a better leader.

Those are two rather simple examples, but what would have happened to Sanguinius if he landed on Macragge? Would he have been killed for being a mutant?

What if Magnus had landed on Barbarus?
 

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You present a key and interesting point on the topic dealing with the development of the Primarchs. However I would like to point out that Guillimans upbringing had little bearing the man that he would eventually develop into. On the Contrary it was his own beleif system, and personality, that agreed with his adopted Father "Kronos'" way of thinking. If it had been the other way around he would have sided with the rebels and slaughtered all Macragge for his ow personal glory.

The Primarchs were all developed to become what they becam; the Emporer saw to that. He would not have left something to chance when dealing with his plans for Humanity and the Age of the Imperium. Thus I honestly have to disagree with your assessment, I think their enviroments had little bearing or consequence on the Primarchs other than to challenge their already "Pre-Programmed" skills and give substances to the legends they were to become.
 

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It's your belief that the planets and the Primarchs were chosen randomly.

Chaos is anything BUT random. Everything it does is for a reason, even if that reason is seeming insanity to us.

There was no possibility of Rowboat landing on Nuceria, because that is not what he was created to be.

I can see the point of a "what if", but it's not a case of "but what if the coin landed on heads rather the tales", this is a case of "but what if the double-headed coin landed on tails?"; it's essentially a physical impossibility.



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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
But we saw obvious long term side effects on Angron the longer the nails were in his brain, to think that Guilliman would not suffer those same side effects is rather idealistic. Guillimans personal views and opinions would not change the physical effects the nails would have. Guilliman would surely still be a brilliant tactician and general, however I would persist in the argument that his fighting style, personal control during combat, and issues with rage would still exist as seen in Angron.

And there are many examples where Chaos does things just for the lulz. The biggest example being Draigo. They could crush him at any moment, but they let him wander around aimlessly in the warp. The Chaos gods are capable of practical jokes, putting Angron, the Primarch destined to be a berserker, on Macragge would have not only been a great joke played by them, but would also make for a MUCH more interesting character. Same applying for Guilliman. The Primarch designed to be tactical and proper, being given a mentally debilitating surgery and forced into gladiator arenas.
 

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Thus I honestly have to disagree with your assessment, I think their enviroments had little bearing or consequence on the Primarchs other than to challenge their already "Pre-Programmed" skills and give substances to the legends they were to become.
I would strongly disagree with that. Their upbringings, adopted fathers, friends etc had a hugely significant impact on the young Primarchs. I'm not doubting that the Emperor had 'pre-programmed' particular traits into the Primarchs, but these were nurtured, squashed, limited or magnified based on individual circumstances. If Lorgar hadn't landed on Colchis, whilst he may have maintained a thirst for truth/philosophy wired into his psyche, he may not have developed such extreme religious faith - especially if he landed on a world like Caliban, Cthonia or Macragge. Curze said it himself in Lord of the Night: "we are all products of our homeworlds" (or something to that effect).

The scattering of the Primarchs was (seemingly) an indirect attack on the Emperor by the Chaos Gods. As Vaz said, the Chaos Gods likely selected (or at least influenced) the worlds that the Primarchs came to rest on.

However I would like to point out that Guillimans upbringing had little bearing the man that he would eventually develop into. On the Contrary it was his own beleif system, and personality, that agreed with his adopted Father "Kronos'" way of thinking.
But how much of that belief system and personality was shaped by Macaggre? The Primarchs, although post-human, were still, in many ways, children when they were discovered/adopted by humans on their homeworlds. I would argue the mindset, personality and beliefs of the young Primarchs were shaped just as much by their adopted family and friends (and therefore their homeworld) as they were by the Emperor in their creation. And given these homeworlds were likely selected or influenced by the Chaos Gods they were also indirectly influenced by them as well.
 

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The fact that the primarchs landed on planets at all and did not just re-materialize in space or drift through the warp forever is indicative enough that their scattering was not random.

I agree with Vaz, I think there is not any possibility at all that they could have ended up anywhere but where they did. If nothing else, we could surmise that their pre-programmed psyches were drawn to those worlds that emulated what they would grow to become.


As far as hypotheticals go however, I think the only thing to change would be their histories. Angron may have been more stable due to the absence of the nails, and someone else maybe less so due to their inclusion, but on the whole I do not believe their strengths would have been too different. Learned later or differently, but I think once they joined the crusade their talents would have come to light one way or another.
 

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I don't think they would land anywhere else. The chaos gods did scatter them and take them and made them land where they would best turn out the way they want. They were all suppose to be based of certian quailtys of the emperor. So with that said gods take them find a guy who have violent tendency's put him on a planet where they will be nurtured and poof angron.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
This thread is not "Should the Primarchs Have Landed on Different Planets?" This thread is, "IF Primarchs Landed on Different Planets"

I am not trying to argue that where the Primarchs landed was random, I am trying to argue that their personalities would not be the same IF they did land on different plants. Yes, Angron was sent to Nuceria on purpose, I acknowledge this, but IF any other Primarch was sent there instead, they would be more aggressive and less stable.

What do you guys think would have happened to Sanguinius if he was given the nails? I believe he would have basically been forced to give into the Red Thirst.
 

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Following the 'if' Lorgar is a very interesting, if he landed on any other planets, he probably wouldn't of formed the Imperial cult. As it was stated it was his 'father' that led him down the road to religion, and it was also stated that the planet was also very religious.
 

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The Chaos gods are capable of practical jokes, putting Angron, the Primarch destined to be a berserker, on Macragge would have not only been a great joke played by them, but would also make for a MUCH more interesting character. Same applying for Guilliman. The Primarch designed to be tactical and proper, being given a mentally debilitating surgery and forced into gladiator arenas
If this is true then why did they not proceed as such Sol? I am not saying your logic is wrong, but I would question why would the Chaos Gods "intentionally" want to have one of these baby Primarchs land on a particular planet where they would grow stronger? Why not then switch them, as you propose?

Additionally why land them there at all instead of just letting them suffocate in space. Idk about you but if I was a psychotic God of Chaos I'd want to give that little whelp the worst death ever and discourage the Emporer from his pursuits.

I'm not doubting that the Emperor had 'pre-programmed' particular traits into the Primarchs, but these were nurtured, squashed, limited or magnified based on individual circumstances.
I confess you have a good point, I had not considered such. However I still think that, while it would have been rough for them then, they would have eventually turned into the men the Emperor had designed them to be.

And given these homeworlds were likely selected or influenced by the Chaos Gods they were also indirectly influenced by them as well.
As I stated earlier,why then would the Gods want them to grow in power. These Primarchs, probably some of the few Mortals who could pose a legitimate threat to them, are to be allowed to survive? It just doesn't make sense honestly.
 

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IF the primarchs landed on different planets, then yeah... absolutely, you're right, SoL. They would be very different individuals.

If Konrad Curze landed on Caliban, for instance, he would still have awful visions of a future where his brothers wage civil war... but he wouldn't have visions of his death at his father's behest. Why? Because on Caliban he would have become not just a hardened survivor, but an individual whose ethics (such as they are) were informed by an order of honourable knights.

Let me carry on along the lines of the point that Vas was making, though (because, honestly, I don't think there's an argument to be made against your "What If" proposition).

For a while, I hated the concept that was being pushed by the Forge World books: that the legions before they found their primarchs were very much like what they would be after that union. But then I got to thinking...

Consider the central point of Legion: if the Cabal is right, then the Emperor being defeated at the end of the Horus Heresy is as bad for Chaos as the prospect of the Emperor winning. The result that Chaos needs is the status quo of M.41 - the Imperium dies slowly and feeds the Ruinous Powers with constant death, decay, entropy, and volatile emotion.

So while Chaos did take the primarchs by force, and while I don't think the Emperor could have known where his sons were sent... I think their destinations were not random. I'm beginning to believe that Chaos sent the primarchs to planets that would suit the "concept" the Emperor thought up for them... but would provide an environment that would push a certain number of them toward treason.

Angron, for instance, was always going to be aggressive and bellicose because that's what he and his legion were designed to be. By sending him to Nurceria, though, Chaos ensured that he was damaged goods. Curze was likewise meant to lead a legion of individuals willing to do terrible things in the name of "justice". Sending him to Nostramo, though, ensured that this intent would be horribly perverted. Magnus and his gifts had a special purpose, but his absence from the authority that only the Emperor could provide over him, he developed hubris and the will god disobey.

So on, so forth.
 

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If this is true then why did they not proceed as such Sol? I am not saying your logic is wrong, but I would question why would the Chaos Gods "intentionally" want to have one of these baby Primarchs land on a particular planet where they would grow stronger? Why not then switch them, as you propose?

Additionally why land them there at all instead of just letting them suffocate in space. Idk about you but if I was a psychotic God of Chaos I'd want to give that little whelp the worst death ever and discourage the Emporer from his pursuits.



I confess you have a good point, I had not considered such. However I still think that, while it would have been rough for them then, they would have eventually turned into the men the Emperor had designed them to be.



As I stated earlier,why then would the Gods want them to grow in power. These Primarchs, probably some of the few Mortals who could pose a legitimate threat to them, are to be allowed to survive? It just doesn't make sense honestly.
Well if there is no beginning or ending in time, and Gods can do things no one truly comprehends, and if they know that 40K is the end came, maybe 30K was the best way to achieve that. Maybe it is all part of some grander design.
 

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As I stated earlier,why then would the Gods want them to grow in power. These Primarchs, probably some of the few Mortals who could pose a legitimate threat to them, are to be allowed to survive? It just doesn't make sense honestly.
The Chaos Gods tried to corrupt all of the Primarchs. They fully succeeding in turning 9 against the Emperor, thus initiating the Horus Heresy. Not only were the Primarchs and their Legions a threat to the Chaos Gods, they were also the (only?) weapon with which the Chaos Gods could strike down the Emperor. That's why the Gods wanted them to not only survive, but to establish themselves as galactic warlords - so that they could be turned against the Emperor and bring about his downfall.
 

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Angron, for instance, was always going to be aggressive and bellicose because that's what he and his legion were designed to be. By sending him to Nurceria, though, Chaos ensured that he was damaged goods. Curze was likewise meant to lead a legion of individuals willing to do terrible things in the name of "justice". Sending him to Nostramo, though, ensured that this intent would be horribly perverted. Magnus and his gifts had a special purpose, but his absence from the authority that only the Emperor could provide over him, he developed hubris and the will god disobey.
Excellent point Phoebus and I had not considered that (+1 Rep for that).

However I would question one thing. Even if Choas was to loose one way or another wouldn't you think Choas would want to eliminate the threat of the Primarchs immediatly? you still get the same end result, only faster right?
 

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But killing the Primarchs at their 'birth', doesn't end in the defeat of the Emperor. Instead he launches the Crusade with twenty Legions that granted, are deprived of their Primarch, but still utterly lethal. In fact, without a figure like Horus or another Primarch, there would probably be very little chance of them rebelling together in such a scale as the Heresy. Perhaps two or three might have rebelled at a common cause. But nine? Nine without Primarchs to command them, where as the loyalists would have the Emperor commanding them.

Also factor in, that the likes of the War Hounds never would have all been subjected to the Butchers Nails, the Night Lords wouldn't have been saturated with rapists, murderers and other criminals. Though granted this could be offset by the other Legions not gaining the advantages they did by having their Primarch in command. That and the Thousand Sons might very well have been screwed.

In any case. Chaos needed to corrupt the Primarchs later on and use them to take the fight to the Emperor. Killing them in their infancy wouldn't have furthered their goals. Also remember, they are in no rush. The Gods are all about the long game.
 

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Excellent point Phoebus and I had not considered that (+1 Rep for that).
Thanks, man!

However I would question one thing. Even if Choas was to loose one way or another wouldn't you think Choas would want to eliminate the threat of the Primarchs immediatly? you still get the same end result, only faster right?
Well, that's the thing - I don't think that Chaos was necessarily going to lose either way. I think the fluff has traditionally - as CotE mentioned - shown that Chaos tried to corrupt the primarchs to defeat the Emperor. I'm taking it one step further, though, and arguing that it's no coincidence that Horus ended up leading nine out of 18 legions into heresy. Victory for Chaos wasn't Horus becoming the new emperor. Victory was the Emperor crippled and unable to threaten the Ruinous Powers, and the Imperium becoming an entity whose very existence and activities fed the gods. :)
 

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Or, conversely, playing the devil's advocate (i.e., put on my Lux hat), the Emperor's goal was to ascend to god hood, and knowing that it required the sacrifice of millions, similar to how his birth came about by the sacrifice of the shamans in the old fluff, (remember the whole "betrayal" thing by Sorot Tchure? Brother on brother, friend on friend? What about father on son?). Who cares if he was shattered in body, he's a god with near enough an entire galaxy of humans that adore him, and continue to fight and suffer in his name, sustained by their emotions like the Chaos Gods are?

When it comes down to it, everyone tends to dismiss the words of Daemons as lies, but the takes the Emperor's word as gospel - what if he's little more than that. Slaanesh was born by the excess emotion of one race, while the Emperor was born by the sacrifice of thousands of powerful psykers. There is a difference in scaling, but there are similarities there between the two. Perhaps to become "accepted" as a Chaos God he had to create something equally cataclysmic.



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Or, conversely, playing the devil's advocate (i.e., put on my Lux hat), the Emperor's goal was to ascend to god hood, and knowing that it required the sacrifice of millions, similar to how his birth came about by the sacrifice of the shamans in the old fluff, (remember the whole "betrayal" thing by Sorot Tchure? Brother on brother, friend on friend? What about father on son?). Who cares if he was shattered in body, he's a god with near enough an entire galaxy of humans that adore him, and continue to fight and suffer in his name, sustained by their emotions like the Chaos Gods are?

When it comes down to it, everyone tends to dismiss the words of Daemons as lies, but the takes the Emperor's word as gospel - what if he's little more than that. Slaanesh was born by the excess emotion of one race, while the Emperor was born by the sacrifice of thousands of powerful psykers. There is a difference in scaling, but there are similarities there between the two. Perhaps to become "accepted" as a Chaos God he had to create something equally cataclysmic.
An interesting point, but I would question whether this bit...

sustained by their emotions like the Chaos Gods are?
...is true. The Emperor is seemingly sustained (as much as an ancient corpse can be sustained) by consuming the souls of sacrificial human psykers and the mystical technologies of the Golden Throne, not by feeding on the emotions of humanity as a whole.

The crux of your point - that the Emperor is akin to the Chaos Gods (in a bitterly ironic way) is relatively accurate. What I've always been uncomfortable with though, is the notion that the Emperor intended to raise to godhood by allowing/planning the Horus Heresy to happen and for himself to be incapacitated. I see the Horus Heresy as the Chaos Gods' triumph over the Emperor, and the ascension to the Golden Throne and subsequent Age of the Imperium merely a delaying of the inevitable. Unless the Emperor can somehow challenge the Gods after being a motionless corpse for one hundred centuries whilst their power has only waxed, Chaos wins.
 

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I would say that the primarchs were a product of both their natural traits and their home worlds. That beings said, I think every primarch would be very different. I think for the most part, the home worlds definitely had a lot to do with what way the legions turned to chaos. I think that Lion El Johnson is an example of what should have been (from chaos' plans) and the individual traits that made him that Chaos had no control over. I think many primarchs would have fallen to chaos given his home world and circumstances.

On the other hand, there are many traitor primarchs that would have stayed loyal given the right circumstances, as well (I think) as well as some loyal primarchs that could have gone traitor if they felt misused for betrayed by the Emperor and the Imperium.
 

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An interesting point, but I would question whether this bit...



...is true. The Emperor is seemingly sustained (as much as an ancient corpse can be sustained) by consuming the souls of sacrificial human psykers and the mystical technologies of the Golden Throne, not by feeding on the emotions of humanity as a whole.

The crux of your point - that the Emperor is akin to the Chaos Gods (in a bitterly ironic way) is relatively accurate. What I've always been uncomfortable with though, is the notion that the Emperor intended to raise to godhood by allowing/planning the Horus Heresy to happen and for himself to be incapacitated. I see the Horus Heresy as the Chaos Gods' triumph over the Emperor, and the ascension to the Golden Throne and subsequent Age of the Imperium merely a delaying of the inevitable. Unless the Emperor can somehow challenge the Gods after being a motionless corpse for one hundred centuries whilst their power has only waxed, Chaos wins.
In which case, he's either living on the "positives" emotion (lumping all the chaos together in a "bad emotion" stockpile for ease of writing, although we all know it's more than that) or some other form of bad one. Whether or not he intended to become incapacitated, I don't know - but, if he's surviving in a more ethereal manner similar to how the gods are sustained (ironically, perhaps the psychic sacrifices are some form of "tether" which is actually preventing him from becoming a full god? I'm sleepy and even I can spot some plot holes there, but I'm not going that deep into it now), then he might be kept bound to the material plane because of those sacrifices, like how other sacrifices can summon warp creatures, it is that preventing the Emperor from "ascending". And either kicking ass/chew gum/take names or joining in with his 4 brother chaos gods (we have pink, blue, green and red. No yellow? Emperah!)



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