[ninja skills]

i understand both reasons to have and to lose the fickle rule as it is a bit annoying at times but does add to the character of the army.

i think rules wise they are good i just think some points costs should come down a little to make up for some of the weaknesses.

also as someone said before there are some units that just do nothing for the army, furies for example.

 

[Commander_Culln]

This may sound a little odd but heralds should be made to be CSMs with CSM stats etc. I say this because you need a human to be able to summon daemons, then for example act like he has a teleport homer with an extra long range so he is teleporting in the daemons and he would start on the board. Also have models for all the units for crying out loud. I know they have a new range coming out August, But models like Skarbrand and the blue scribes are extremely hard to convert. THe codex itself has pretty strong rules but I agree with Sartan2000 they should have a rule that lets them assault on the first turn of deep striking. Mine normally arrive then immediately get shot to bits. 'Phew' glad to get all that off my chest.

 

[Katie Drake]

Erm, no, you don't need a human around for Daemons to be able to come into the physical realm. You need a warp rift or a weakening of the barriers between reality and the warp, which there are plenty of ways to accomplish.

Daemons are a victim of the change in editions. In 4th Edition, Daemons were scary mofos and not just because their book was new. Think about it - the number of models with access to Rending is huge and was an extremely powerful ability in 4th. They had little issue with vehicles then since a Daemonette could potentially open up a Land Raider like a can of sardines. Vehicles were also a lot easier to destroy then since it was possible to destroy them on a glancing hit roll of '6', and a 4 or better on the Penetrating Hit chart resulted in a dead metal box.

Despite being released only a short time before 5th edition was launched, I can't help but feel that the army was really intended to work in a 4th edition environment.

 

[Vanchet]

Great Unclean One wih more then 5 wounds :/
even the pregnant nid has more wounds then him

 

[SHarrington]

Great Unclean One wih more then 5 wounds :/
even the pregnant nid has more wounds then him

*Will gladly trade 1 wound for Auto-FNP and an Invulnerable save.*

That guy is a brick wall. I hit him with a Swarmlord, 2 Tyrant Guard, a Tyranid Prime, a toxic Broodlord and 3 toxic Genestealers all at once.
It took 3 rounds of combat to kill him, and then only just.

If you want a mobile barricade for your army, this guy does the job and then some.

There are things that need to be empowered in this codex, but the Great Unclean one and KuGath are not among those.

 

[Vanchet]

What you kiddi?
He gets raped from where I play-the rest are awesome

 

[SHarrington]

What you kiddi?
He gets raped from where I play-the rest are awesome

Must be a match up thing then. I hit GUO with (arguably) the most powerful close combat unit in all of 40k, with assistance, and he tarpitted us.

Perhaps it's easier to kill when you have drop pod meltas or something, but from a nid stance, he's a momentum breaker.

 

[Vanchet]

It ain't hard for ids either
He only has his 4 invun to use and I2 you pretty much got him sliced in pieces

 

[Sethis]

I disagree that splitting your army into two equal halves is a terrible idea. You just need to do two things:

- Compose a balanced army. This will let you have 2 balanced waves, or alternatively 1 wave that does one thing really well, and another wave that does something else really well. For example you could split your army into shooty and melee units, and regardless of which wave comes down you have a very effective shooting or melee force.

- Play on real tables and use a micron of common sense when deploying. Going on the average of 50% terrain coverage, your opponent would have to deploy his entire army clumped together in order to concentrate any kind of serious firepower on an entirely Deep Striking army, at which point you just Deep Strike behind cover and wait for the rest of your army to turn up, and then surround him. If he spreads his forces out then you can try to overwhelm his half army with your half army - to your net benefit, because you can reinforce your half very easily the following turn whereas (unless he's Mech Eldar) he will take longer to redeploy than you.

Daemons aren't the most powerful codex out there, but they're prefectly capable of dealing with most things in a casual game and winning.

 

[Warlock in Training]

They should slap the good units into 5th Edition CSM, cancel Daemons as stand alone, and get back on with life.

 

[SHarrington]

Blessing of the blood god should provde a save against ALL psychic attacks, not just wounding ones.

 

[Katie Drake]

Blessing of the blood god should provde a save against ALL psychic attacks, not just wounding ones.

Agreed. It's how we played it until an Eldar player started bitching that it wasn't fair that he couldn't Doom my 275 point Bloodthirster.

 

[LukeValantine]

I can't believe someone actually suggested balanced waves. If you have ever actually played daemons for any length of time you quickly realize somethings excel in the first wave, and other are better left in the box then on the table if the come in the first wave.

For instance, it makes very little sense in most situations to have daemonettes or most slaanesh models come in the first wave since even guardsmen will kill them in droves, in other words they really don't have a place in a so called balanced wave system. Also plague bearers sole purpose beside camping objectives is to deliver icons so units don't scatter to death (Something they do better then any other unit), however do to their crippling slowness coming in latter waves really doesn't help much except to hopefully cap objectives. Hell this isn't even taking into fricking account the fact that making balenced waves often weakens your arriving force considerably, and generally adds a extra 100 pts of usless crap designed for the sole perpous of making both waves able to help deliver icons or survive the first round of shooting.

Hell even tactically its a stupid idea since the enemy will just target priority the strongest stuff in each wave leaving the tar pit, and support units all alone for counter assaults. Oh also the minimum requirement for terrain is 25% which is roughly what most games use meaning simple going behind cover is retarded especially with a built in 5+ inv, not even consider the fact that without transport and most of the best stuff moving like infantry trying to avoid the enemy by going behind cover can cost you games. Oddly enough do to the nature of the army I find daemons have a weird situation where they are often better in objective games then kill point games.

 

[Chumbalaya]

*Will gladly trade 1 wound for Auto-FNP and an Invulnerable save.*

That guy is a brick wall. I hit him with a Swarmlord, 2 Tyrant Guard, a Tyranid Prime, a toxic Broodlord and 3 toxic Genestealers all at once.
It took 3 rounds of combat to kill him, and then only just.

If you want a mobile barricade for your army, this guy does the job and then some.

There are things that need to be empowered in this codex, but the Great Unclean one and KuGath are not among those.

And I've had Termagants kill one in combat (toxin sacs FTW). He's tough, but slow.

I disagree that splitting your army into two equal halves is a terrible idea. You just need to do two things:

- Compose a balanced army. This will let you have 2 balanced waves, or alternatively 1 wave that does one thing really well, and another wave that does something else really well. For example you could split your army into shooty and melee units, and regardless of which wave comes down you have a very effective shooting or melee force.

- Play on real tables and use a micron of common sense when deploying. Going on the average of 50% terrain coverage, your opponent would have to deploy his entire army clumped together in order to concentrate any kind of serious firepower on an entirely Deep Striking army, at which point you just Deep Strike behind cover and wait for the rest of your army to turn up, and then surround him. If he spreads his forces out then you can try to overwhelm his half army with your half army - to your net benefit, because you can reinforce your half very easily the following turn whereas (unless he's Mech Eldar) he will take longer to redeploy than you.

Daemons aren't the most powerful codex out there, but they're prefectly capable of dealing with most things in a casual game and winning.

Taking a balanced army is important. The "equal wave" thing is referring to fielding 2 symmetrical waves so, in theory, you don't suffer from getting the wrong wave. All that does is dilute each wave's effectiveness and force you to fight a full army with half of yours.

A mobile opponent can easily bring the fight to you, especially if most of your ranged tank busters are sitting in reserves. Proper DS defense, bubblewrap and stalling units can hurt you badly.

Daemons can win in casual games, but they suffer competitively.

They should slap the good units into 5th Edition CSM, cancel Daemons as stand alone, and get back on with life.

I would be ok with that. Bring back the big Chaos Codex, just make all Daemon armies a viable build as well.

 

[LukeValantine]

Yah and call it Chaos For The Win codex or CFTW for short. Unfortunately at this point it is almost impossible that they will go back to the old ways still. Although it would be nice if somehow taking a certain number of marked units allowed you to take Chaos Daemons troops from the same god instead of the incredibly bland lesser daemon in the current codex. Mind you after this edition of CSM I wouldn't be surprised if we lose daemons all together in the next edition of CSM. Still at least the next Daemons codex probably won't be old school ork randomness when it comes to competitive play.

 

[Wiccus]

That is something that GW has been doing lately that confuses and kind of bothers me. The separation of the chaos powers. In 40k we now have a separate CSM and Daemon codex where they used to be one. In fantasy Daemons and mortals were one book, beasts were another but all three armies could team up and use units from each others books.

Now the armies will have absolutely nothing to do with each other but the gods are rollerskating down the board walk to go and get an ice cream cone to share followed by a round of compliments and ending the day with a hug fest. The gods used to hate eachother. What gives with the unity with the gods but the bad blood between their loyal followers?

I do kind of prefer a separate Daemon codex for 40k I just wish they were better. There have been many times that I have wanted to take my Daemons to a competitive event but realized my guard were the much more logical choice. Daemons are a blast to play they just need a little oomph.

 

[solkan]

I just thought of one simple rule which would improve daemons a lot:

When a unit is engaged with a vehicle, and the vehicle is destroyed or wrecked, the passengers who get out of the vehicle are considered part of the combat as participants in a multi-unit combat.

In other words, the assault version of the "If you shoot a transport and destroy it, you can assault the passengers" rule.