[Flame80010]

I do this with units of 15 Lesser Demons. Nothing like 45 S4 attacks just materializing in front of the enemy!

dont they alos have 5++ saves? o.o

thats just mean XD

especialy for the hella cheap price...


i think the main reason people dont like lesser deamons is just because they dont have any real special rules but really say your running a TS army you just got yourself a nice cheap CC unit to help you out ^.^

not to mention that can capture

IoCG is imba it should probably be nerfed XD because i mean its 10 points to get a second chance to stop your 200+ point unit from running away like little bitches after some loyalists come and hurl instults at them

 

[Winterous]

dont they alos have 5++ saves? o.o

thats just mean XD

especialy for the hella cheap price...


i think the main reason people dont like lesser deamons is just because they dont have any real special rules but really say your running a TS army you just got yourself a nice cheap CC unit to help you out ^.^

not to mention that can capture

IoCG is imba it should probably be nerfed XD because i mean its 10 points to get a second chance to stop your 200+ point unit from running away like little bitches after some loyalists come and hurl instults at them

Yes they do, they're a very useful for helping out a unit that's got charged.

And yeah, I think that IoCG is preferable to Fearless in a single big way, it means you don't take extra saves just for losing combat.

 

[Serpion5]

Anything that reduces the amount of saves you have to take is definitely a good thing.

I play nids and necrons both, I would KILL for an IoCG equivelant in those books. My CSM never leave home without their pointy stars on sticks I assure you.

Definitely worth it.

 

[Winterous]

Anything that reduces the amount of saves you have to take is definitely a good thing.

I play nids and necrons both, I would KILL for an IoCG equivelant in those books. My CSM never leave home without their pointy stars on sticks I assure you.

Definitely worth it.

Oh yes, Nids certainly do not enjoy being Fearless when it comes to CC.

 

[LordWaffles]

Seriously.
Think what you will, but the "newer and better stuff" isn't all the internet says it is. a Good player can overcome GWs codex creep with an older dex. It's not the list, it's the General.

It's not the general, it's the list. Even a god general with a bad list can't beat a noob with the solid chaos list. It's impossible. Let's say the bad list contains no special weapons and no champs, just dudes and a weaponless lord. You're boned no matter how much you have the heart of the cards.

Albeit yes, an older dex can beat a newer dex with statistical improbability, just as I might eventually defy gravity and float into space as some sort of orbiting hate satellite.

I just don't see where the math favors the older and worse choices.


As for the task at hand, I don't see where the reroll is better than ATSKNF, or fearless. A second chance to not die is great, except when it fails. Then your 220 point chaos marine unit dies instantly because they have garbage initiative from not taking i5 icon of slaanesh, or they died that much because they didn't have a 5++ to save them, or you just rolled bad and got pinned. The cult troops ignore all these problems, either from NOT losing combat in the first place(Zerks), or by losing combat, then not giving a damn due to 3+ armor 4+ fnp saves(plagues) on top of that both of those units score and have ridiculous bonuses for such a low amount of points per marine. Additionally the PMs can be taken in six man squads which means as mentioned earlier they cost about the same, and they get hit by templates less due to less models, also hiding them out of los is easier(less dudes to hide!)

Albeit is I do run vanilla marines for apoc games I always take fabius, my 220 point squads aren't a liability, and they're stronger, the lack of an hq choice doesnt matter so much in apoc so it's a decent trade.

 

[ckcrawford]

I honestly prefer having an icon that would better suit you in close quarters so you don't need to worry about rerolling leaderships. Basically the IOCG means your already thinking about losing the unit. If thats the case, you should make sure the unit can't run away that easy by giving it more attacks, or better initiative, and so forth. I think one should be more concerned about winning the combat than worrying about retreating. Shooting is a different thing. You have good enough leadership anyway, and no one is that dumb to put their models out in the open in front of a bunch of fire power.

Anyway, thats my take.

 

[DeathKlokk]

It's not the general, it's the list. Even a god general with a bad list can't beat a noob with the solid chaos list. It's impossible. Let's say the bad list contains no special weapons and no champs, just dudes and a weaponless lord. You're boned no matter how much you have the heart of the cards.

By your logic all tournaments should be won by Blood Angels, Tyranids or Guard. Dark Eldar, Necrons and Chaos would never win.

I have qualified for Ard Boyz finals twice with my CSMs and my buddy who plays DE has been twice.

The best player in our group plays Space Marines, only because he got tired of never (EVER) losing a game with Eldar.

A better General beats a better codex ANY DAY. There are just too many variables in this game to definitively say "this army will beat that one". If you're ever in the Nashville area, PM me and I will show you. :victory:

Granted, a totally horrible list purpose-built to fail like your example won't work, but neither is playing against a 2-year old for my point.

 

[LordWaffles]

By your logic all tournaments should be won by Blood Angels, Tyranids or Guard.

I think guard won ard boyz, and the final rounds were mostly blood angels, wolves, and guard. Tyranids got shit all over.

Dark Eldar, Necrons and Chaos would never win.

Necrons and daemonhunters can't win. Dark eldar have a solid spam list, and chaos is still bringing up the rear of second tier armies.

I have qualified for Ard Boyz finals twice with my CSMs and my buddy who plays DE has been twice.

DE are not bad and neither are CSM(lolwat). Hell I qualified for finals with goddamned Templar.
Also since you say twice, I will assume this year and last? Last year was a great year for both those armies, this year was only SLIGHTLY worse.

The best player in our group plays Space Marines, only because he got tired of never (EVER) losing a game with Eldar.

Yeah all the eldar around here quit when fourth edition flying circus of horseshit ended...also everyone plays space marines, this counterpoint confuses me.

A better General beats a better codex ANY DAY. There are just too many variables in this game to definitively say "this army will beat that one". If you're ever in the Nashville area, PM me and I will show you. :victory:

This post is full of lies and heresy. Good BA lists topple almost any other army in the game, they play themselves. Fire zee lazers, pop the smoke. Shoot guns.

That being said if you're saying someone with a stronger grasp of the RULES versus someone else? Sure but that's only due to cheating more hahaha.

Also you imply you cut in the front of the line for all the hot bitches in Tennessee.
Though if you wish, next ard boys we could coordinate where to battle semifinals at. I'll bring blood angels and take a half quart of vodka, two ex pills, three blunts, and a pill of acid. THEN. THEN WE SHALL SEE GOODSIR.

Granted, a totally horrible list purpose-built to fail like your example won't work, but neither is playing against a 2-year old for my point.

I still think this time last year a 2-year old playing nob trucks deff rolla could beat most armies in the game, most certainly the bad ones.

 

[ckcrawford]

Chaos armies are probably considered one of the most overpowered codexes in the game perhaps right there under Blood Angels.

I think its more about unit and point dispersion when finding a reasonable list. In that sense I could see why space marines and orks often come up with pretty good lists.

 

[DeathKlokk]

My Legion of Brass has never lost to:

Space Wolves
Guard
Blood Angels

Waffles, the only Hottie in Tennessee that you have to worry about with me is mine. Who happens to be named Tennessee.

 

[LordWaffles]

My Legion of Brass has never lost to:

Space Wolves
Guard
Blood Angels

Waffles, the only Hottie in Tennessee that you have to worry about with me is mine. Who happens to be named Tennessee.

You know what they say about girls named after states :grin:

And I know several, most of whom I'd never call back but that's more because it's such a drive.

From the way you describe your legion of brass I can only assume one of three things:
Either those armies you described are not kitted out properly, the players of which are total garbage, or you/them have cheatyface/cursed dice, respectively.

It's statistical improbability/impossibility for bad chaos to roll even against the current metagame of BA being incredibly undercosted for the libbie/razorback. Even good generalship can only go so far, just as listbuilding can only go so far.

This is where I am pointing out a disparage in your analysis.


That being said in the current 12 week league my FLGS is running I am undefeated circa week ten and have played all those armies and nids. The wolves weren't so much a problem, the nids was simple raider spam, the guard was statistically fantastic rolling on my part and a very bad move on his and the BA?

Well the BA decided to drop thirty marines out of the sky. Onto my land raider. I am very glad I had windshield wipers for all those mishaps.

 

[Winterous]

Well the BA decided to drop thirty marines out of the sky. Onto my land raider. I am very glad I had windshield wipers for all those mishaps.

LOL!

I agree with Donkey Kong though (DK), good palyer is more important; a good list is very important, but ultimately a better player will win - the list is sort of part of their ability too, army construction is a skill.

 

[ChaosRedCorsairLord]

General > List

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[PanzerPig]

It's statistical improbability/impossibility for bad chaos to roll even against the current metagame of BA being incredibly undercosted for the libbie/razorback. Even good generalship can only go so far, just as listbuilding can only go so far

Suck joy out of game with maths- check

When did people stop playing and start an in depth analysis of probability within the game?

To the OP, I like IoCG, it gives a re roll to a unit without fearless, which means they have a chance of sticking around which is nice and its only 10pts, which means you don't have to re write your army to fit it in. The best point about it is the re rolling of pinning checks, for those times when the rhino gets turned into terrain and you want to be on the other side of it. Personally I'd steer clear of the others as they are a touch on the pricey side for my liking.

 

[DeathKlokk]

General>List>Codex

 

[Flame80010]

General>List>Codex

i would have thought it went

General > Codex > List

 

[DeathKlokk]

Ni because the list is closely related to both the codex and the General. A shitty codex can be redeemed by a good list writer (DE Dark Lance spam, Necron Spyder spam/C'tan/ Multi-Monos).

 

[Winterous]

i would have thought it went

General > Codex > List

Only when:

Codex = Necrons

 

[LordWaffles]

i would have thought it went

General > Codex > List

People like to assume they're better generals than they really are. Actually it's more like

List = Codex = General

Because a bad necron of similar skill does not beat a bad space wolf.
A good daemonhunter does not beat a good ig
A bad player with leafblower ig can beat a bad eldar list with a good general

I guess it's mostly opinion. No amount of data on any side of this argument will convince the other. Most tournament players believe there's some amazing untouchable skill required. I think if you just shit all over someones army with dice, and don't do anything stupid, you can pull great victories.

 

[DeathKlokk]

I agree Waffles, that's why the list is more important. A good Necron list with a good General (who knows his own army) can beat a bad player with ANY army.